Two Hand vs Shield

[Coryphaus]

Sm is the answer shlomo... run a sm.

but then you have to play sm

[Greatwarden]

It's been discussed a bit before, and the general consensus is usually that 2H sucks in most cases and only really viable with specific mechanics like the chosen's oppressing blows.

But if we ignore everything class specific and just look at general stats (damage bonus, block, parry, procs, and mechanics like strike-through). What exactly is gained/loss by using either? How much increased damage am I getting out of going 2h over s/b? How much mitigation am I losing from block? etc...

If we look at the chosen RR 70 gear as an example....

2H
Titan's Direblade of Vice
S/B
Sentry's Sword of Vice
Shieldbearer's Herald of Vice

So the 2H has 32 more DPS than the 1h, flat stats and things like parry/crit/power seem to be equal even if the itemization on the shield is defensive focused rather than offensive like the weapons I think those can be thrown out for the sake of keeping things simple? The shield gives 28.5% block from rating alone.

And here is where I am a bit stumped, it sounds like you are giving up 28.5% block for an increase of 32 weapon dps? Which is like 160 str? It just seems too shitty to be real.

Just to be sure: did you factor in the 10% strike-through that you get from a 2H? It's a small thing, but every little bit helps.

Well its a mixed bag especially with tanks, you give up a lot on certain classes like BG and get very little in return, where as other classes like chosen give up destined for victory if they go 2h but they get access to an easier way to apply crippling stikes and a crit tactic

I'm a complete novice when it comes to BGs, but don't they tend to lean very heavily on their toughness and second-to-none disrupt chances to survive? If survivability is what you mean by 'giving up a lot', then I'd argue that BGs give up less than most.

[Coryphaus]

http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... :;;0:0:0:0:

If you spec 2H bg you dont have sufficent points to get shielding anger, toughness like your thingking of comes from deft tank tree with terrifying foe

But most important of all you lose access to the longest KD in the game which is pretty huge

[Annaise16]

It's been discussed a bit before, and the general consensus is usually that 2H sucks in most cases and only really viable with specific mechanics like the chosen's oppressing blows.

So the 2H has 32 more DPS than the 1h, flat stats and things like parry/crit/power seem to be equal even if the itemization on the shield is defensive focused rather than offensive like the weapons I think those can be thrown out for the sake of keeping things simple? The shield gives 28.5% block from rating alone.

And here is where I am a bit stumped, it sounds like you are giving up 28.5% block for an increase of 32 weapon dps? Which is like 160 str? It just seems too shitty to be real.

The block stat on the paper doll is the block percentage against a toon that has the same offensive stat as the mobs. A mob's offensive stat is equal to 50 + 7.5 x the mob's level. So a level 40 mob would have a strength of 350. On the other hand, a player's level 40 dps toon would have an offensive stat of about 1050, which is 3 times larger than the mob's stat. So, your block percentage against a dps toon would be one-third of 28.5% = 9.5%. So you are really swapping about 10% block for the extra dps a 2H gives you.

In general, if you don't change any other stats or your mastery build, swapping out a shield for a two-hander gives you about 10% extra dps for the sacrifice of about 10% mitigation. So the choice of 2H versus S+B comes down to what you want from your mastery spec.

[Greatwarden]

http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... :;;0:0:0:0:

If you spec 2H bg you dont have sufficent points to get shielding anger, toughness like your thingking of comes from deft tank tree with terrifying foe

But most important of all you lose access to the longest KD in the game which is pretty huge

With respect, isn't what you're effectively saying is "if you spec DPS (which is basically what you spec looks like) you don't have sufficient anger to spec defense"? Whether or not you're wearing a 2H or a shield is almost beside the point, since only ONE of your abilities requires a 2H.

I am in favor discussions about the benefits and disadvantages of 2H v Shield, but one of the core ideas of specs is that one spec can't do EVERYTHING.


Regarding the KW, I think that it is amazing, but wouldn't go as far as to say that BGs NEED it.

[Valnak]

So the choice of 2H versus S+B comes down to what you want from your mastery spec.

This is the only correct answer.

[Jaycub]

The block stat on the paper doll is the block percentage against a toon that has the same offensive stat as the mobs. A mob's offensive stat is equal to 50 + 7.5 x the mob's level. So a level 40 mob would have a strength of 350. On the other hand, a player's level 40 dps toon would have an offensive stat of about 1050, which is 3 times larger than the mob's stat. So, your block percentage against a dps toon would be one-third of 28.5% = 9.5%. So you are really swapping about 10% block for the extra dps a 2H gives you.

In general, if you don't change any other stats or your mastery build, swapping out a shield for a two-hander gives you about 10% extra dps for the sacrifice of about 10% mitigation. So the choice of 2H versus S+B comes down to what you want from your mastery spec.

Why is block 1/3rd of paper doll stats? How does str effect block chance, I thought it only effected parry breakthrough? And what about int for spells etc...?

i just took the block rating of the shield and used this formula btw...

Block rating of shield / [(level * 7.5 + 50)*5] = Block %

[Annaise16]

For toons of equal level,

Block % = (20% x shield rating / opponent's offensive stat) +/- percentage modifiers

Example
Assuming there are no percentage modifiers, if your shield rating = 450 and your opponent's offensive stat = 1000, the block percentage will be:

Block % = 20% x 450 / 1000 = 9%


All passive defences are contested rolls:

Parry is defender's weapon skill versus attacker's strength
Block is defender's shield rating versus attacker's offensive stat (str/int/bal)
Disrupt is defender's willpower versus attacker's intelligence
Dodge is defender's initiative versus attacker's ballistic skill

PS. I don't know about this EMU, but on live, Guard damage was blocked at the rate shown on the paper doll. So block was very good at reducing damage from Guard.

[Fuklebark]

I run a 2H SM as a main, and I can throw in a bit here. Personally, yeah I'd love to see 2h damage go up, but I don't expect to see that for a while (after t4, at the very least).

As a SM with (finally!) access to Ether Dance and GW specific tactics like Great Weapon Mastery or Balanced Accuracy, I find a very noticable DPS increase, for a pretty noticable survivability decrease. I get some help here from RR parry and Eagle's Flight, but I do sometimes miss the shield.

It's not in topic (I'm an adamant theorycraft consumer, but a lousy contributer) but I can list my experience playing a 2h tank main.

PROS-
-DPS increase over SnB, access to tactics/skill that allow me to apply higher single-target pressure.
- More survivable than straight DPS class, due to high armor and toughness.
- More Access to CC abilities (generally, though SM is kinda lackluster in this department)
-Ability to be a situational MDPS-buddy or healer/backline bodyguard as the need arises. Guard switching and my higher DPS help especially in eliminating pesky enemy MDPS that are pressuring the healers and BWs.

CONS-
- The obvious one: Less durability. More vulnerable to spellcasters especially, I find.
- My guard kills me very often when the fecal matter really hits the fan. Not enough mitigation to survive the really big focuses or when our healers are otherwise preoccupied.
- 'You want in my premade group? Bwahahaha... no."
- Not as much in my case, but in the above stated case of the BG (and others) the loss of some archetype abilities and CC.

ROLE?
Believe it or not, I'm still not sure on this one. I often stick to pressuring where it's needed and guarding when the pressure is on, but I've yet to completely find my niche. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd love to hear them.

[Annaise16]

I run a 2H SM as a main, and I can throw in a bit here. Personally, yeah I'd love to see 2h damage go up, but I don't expect to see that for a while (after t4, at the very least).

As a SM with (finally!) access to Ether Dance and GW specific tactics like Great Weapon Mastery or Balanced Accuracy, I find a very noticable DPS increase, for a pretty noticable survivability decrease. I get some help here from RR parry and Eagle's Flight, but I do sometimes miss the shield.

...

ROLE?
Believe it or not, I'm still not sure on this one. I often stick to pressuring where it's needed and guarding when the pressure is on, but I've yet to completely find my niche. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd love to hear them.

The snare is the best cc for an SM and its something you should be using a lot if you want to control the battlefield as a tank. The problem is that you have to sacrifice your parry buff if you want to use the snare. This is the conundrum for the 2H SM, especially if they're using Guard.

Having a reliable healer is a big benefit for any dps tank.