Tank Survivability: Are Defensive Builds Rewarded Enough?

[Jajcek12]

In fact its quite important developer problem how this archetype interacts with resaurces of game and how Interactive and interesting is playing it.

Tank ware never big dmg dealer in this game , they have few aoe abbilities but not coming with big synergys with other personal buff/ debuffs. There ware few exceptions but you get the idea.

Do You ask how independent playstyle is specing into deftank? And how altruistic it is in case of interactions with othere archetypes ?
The problem of environment : rvr/ sc/city and explanation will be different.
I belive there is no general conclusion- there is noticable shift towards tanks who is anty-cc giver.
Because moste of times def tanks apear in rvr i will write opinion on that one.
For me it look as intended direction and analisis how battles are happening indepent from meta.
Deftank must survive 10-30s biggest burst gap when fight resolve and hes not delivering any buffs that deliver high value in long run. Sure there is " morale gaining" phase but it doesnt push players to interact with different abbilities and doesnt create values in different gbcds/ abbilities.
Puting same question/ conclusion othere way, is there time to spec othere builds and be effective in current state of game- i belive no.

Funny as it sound but to enjoi and understand current def tank rvr builds you must play tank in previous metas 3/4 years before to understand what was starting points for this. For new player playing rvr def tank would be not entertaining, not intuitive and not educative. Player must know the game resaurces already to perform good as tank and its not always corelated with abbilities progresion- and when it reach its end ,player discover that possible interactions are very limited.

Ps: tanks are good design, but are they fun to play in rvr context ? No
Pps: as tanks in rvr use different game resaurces as othere class what means : place, time, dmg input control, anti-cc, mild/hard cc def-rvr specs would be pushed towards builds without pounts and pount would be reserved for sc/city environment. Or at least it persive changes that moving in that direction.

[choof]

[gisborne]

You want to survive whitout a healer or whats going on here?

You literally see bunch on unkillable tanks punting people back and forth every night and day.

I would say tanks are too hard to kill and defences should be reduced.

This is the consequence of Sov level gear. Defenses scale too well. 1% block when you have 50% already is a 2% damage reduction. 1% when you have 0% block is just a 1% reduction. Armor is the same way. On live you got less damage reduction per point of armor the more you had. Here it's linear, but each point is worth significantly more. Guess who has the most armor and can take advantage of that...

Also, why does jewelry have 2% block or parry yet they only have 1% crit?

[chook06]

In fact its quite important developer problem how this archetype interacts with resaurces of game and how Interactive and interesting is playing it.

Tank ware never big dmg dealer in this game , they have few aoe abbilities but not coming with big synergys with other personal buff/ debuffs. There ware few exceptions but you get the idea.

Do You ask how independent playstyle is specing into deftank? And how altruistic it is in case of interactions with othere archetypes ?
The problem of environment : rvr/ sc/city and explanation will be different.
I belive there is no general conclusion- there is noticable shift towards tanks who is anty-cc giver.
Because moste of times def tanks apear in rvr i will write opinion on that one.
For me it look as intended direction and analisis how battles are happening indepent from meta.
Deftank must survive 10-30s biggest burst gap when fight resolve and hes not delivering any buffs that deliver high value in long run. Sure there is " morale gaining" phase but it doesnt push players to interact with different abbilities and doesnt create values in different gbcds/ abbilities.
Puting same question/ conclusion othere way, is there time to spec othere builds and be effective in current state of game- i belive no.

Funny as it sound but to enjoi and understand current def tank rvr builds you must play tank in previous metas 3/4 years before to understand what was starting points for this. For new player playing rvr def tank would be not entertaining, not intuitive and not educative. Player must know the game resaurces already to perform good as tank and its not always corelated with abbilities progresion- and when it reach its end ,player discover that possible interactions are very limited.

Ps: tanks are good design, but are they fun to play in rvr context ? No
Pps: as tanks in rvr use different game resaurces as othere class what means : place, time, dmg input control, anti-cc, mild/hard cc def-rvr specs would be pushed towards builds without pounts and pount would be reserved for sc/city environment. Or at least it persive changes that moving in that direction.

Thanks, this is exactly the kind of reply I was hoping to get when I started the thread.

I think you’re highlighting something important. I may have focused too much on raw survivability in my original post, when the real issue is probably broader than that.

The difference between RvR, SCs and small scale definitely matters, and I think your point about a defensive tank needing to survive the key burst window is especially relevant.

I also agree with what you said about how rewarding the role actually feels to play. If you give up most of your offensive potential to go full defensive, but your gameplay ends up being mostly about surviving that burst window, providing anti-CC and using a fairly limited set of impactful tools, then it’s fair to ask whether that level of investment is rewarding enough.

Maybe that’s a better way to frame what I was trying to say in the first place. Not simply: “Are defensive tanks tanky enough?” but rather: “Does the game reward players enough for committing so heavily to a defensive playstyle, both in terms of effectiveness and how enjoyable that role feels to play?”

I also think your point about newer players is interesting. If defensive tank gameplay only starts to feel rewarding once you already have a strong understanding of the game and its mechanics, that could also be part of the reason why the role attracts fewer players.

Either way, this is exactly the kind of feedback that makes me rethink part of my original view, which was the whole point of opening the discussion.

[Lescargo]

In fact its quite important developer problem how this archetype interacts with resaurces of game and how Interactive and interesting is playing it.

Tank ware never big dmg dealer in this game , they have few aoe abbilities but not coming with big synergys with other personal buff/ debuffs. There ware few exceptions but you get the idea.

Do You ask how independent playstyle is specing into deftank? And how altruistic it is in case of interactions with othere archetypes ?
The problem of environment : rvr/ sc/city and explanation will be different.
I belive there is no general conclusion- there is noticable shift towards tanks who is anty-cc giver.
Because moste of times def tanks apear in rvr i will write opinion on that one.
For me it look as intended direction and analisis how battles are happening indepent from meta.
Deftank must survive 10-30s biggest burst gap when fight resolve and hes not delivering any buffs that deliver high value in long run. Sure there is " morale gaining" phase but it doesnt push players to interact with different abbilities and doesnt create values in different gbcds/ abbilities.
Puting same question/ conclusion othere way, is there time to spec othere builds and be effective in current state of game- i belive no.

Funny as it sound but to enjoi and understand current def tank rvr builds you must play tank in previous metas 3/4 years before to understand what was starting points for this. For new player playing rvr def tank would be not entertaining, not intuitive and not educative. Player must know the game resaurces already to perform good as tank and its not always corelated with abbilities progresion- and when it reach its end ,player discover that possible interactions are very limited.

Ps: tanks are good design, but are they fun to play in rvr context ? No
Pps: as tanks in rvr use different game resaurces as othere class what means : place, time, dmg input control, anti-cc, mild/hard cc def-rvr specs would be pushed towards builds without pounts and pount would be reserved for sc/city environment. Or at least it persive changes that moving in that direction.

Thanks, this is exactly the kind of reply I was hoping to get when I started the thread.

I think you’re highlighting something important. I may have focused too much on raw survivability in my original post, when the real issue is probably broader than that.

The difference between RvR, SCs and small scale definitely matters, and I think your point about a defensive tank needing to survive the key burst window is especially relevant.

I also agree with what you said about how rewarding the role actually feels to play. If you give up most of your offensive potential to go full defensive, but your gameplay ends up being mostly about surviving that burst window, providing anti-CC and using a fairly limited set of impactful tools, then it’s fair to ask whether that level of investment is rewarding enough.

Maybe that’s a better way to frame what I was trying to say in the first place. Not simply: “Are defensive tanks tanky enough?” but rather: “Does the game reward players enough for committing so heavily to a defensive playstyle, both in terms of effectiveness and how enjoyable that role feels to play?”

I also think your point about newer players is interesting. If defensive tank gameplay only starts to feel rewarding once you already have a strong understanding of the game and its mechanics, that could also be part of the reason why the role attracts fewer players.

Either way, this is exactly the kind of feedback that makes me rethink part of my original view, which was the whole point of opening the discussion.

Reading what you say, I get the impression that tanks aren't for you; perhaps you should play something else. Tanks are in a good spot right now, but that particular playstyle might just not suit you.

There are tank builds capable of dealing solid damage while maintaining good survivability—particularly effective in solo or small-group play—but it takes theorycrafting, experience, and fine-tuning. Admittedly, a beginner might not be able to pull off a build like that; managing to deal DPS and secure kills as a tank is something of an ultimate reward—it requires smart build choices and a thoughtful approach to gameplay.

There are several of us tanks with over 1,000 solo kills, and some are even approaching the 10k, so yeah, tanks can survive and deal damages.

[Jajcek12]

In fact its quite important developer problem how this archetype interacts with resaurces of game and how Interactive and interesting is playing it.

Tank ware never big dmg dealer in this game , they have few aoe abbilities but not coming with big synergys with other personal buff/ debuffs. There ware few exceptions but you get the idea.

Do You ask how independent playstyle is specing into deftank? And how altruistic it is in case of interactions with othere archetypes ?
The problem of environment : rvr/ sc/city and explanation will be different.
I belive there is no general conclusion- there is noticable shift towards tanks who is anty-cc giver.
Because moste of times def tanks apear in rvr i will write opinion on that one.
For me it look as intended direction and analisis how battles are happening indepent from meta.
Deftank must survive 10-30s biggest burst gap when fight resolve and hes not delivering any buffs that deliver high value in long run. Sure there is " morale gaining" phase but it doesnt push players to interact with different abbilities and doesnt create values in different gbcds/ abbilities.
Puting same question/ conclusion othere way, is there time to spec othere builds and be effective in current state of game- i belive no.

Funny as it sound but to enjoi and understand current def tank rvr builds you must play tank in previous metas 3/4 years before to understand what was starting points for this. For new player playing rvr def tank would be not entertaining, not intuitive and not educative. Player must know the game resaurces already to perform good as tank and its not always corelated with abbilities progresion- and when it reach its end ,player discover that possible interactions are very limited.

Ps: tanks are good design, but are they fun to play in rvr context ? No
Pps: as tanks in rvr use different game resaurces as othere class what means : place, time, dmg input control, anti-cc, mild/hard cc def-rvr specs would be pushed towards builds without pounts and pount would be reserved for sc/city environment. Or at least it persive changes that moving in that direction.

Thanks, this is exactly the kind of reply I was hoping to get when I started the thread.

I think you’re highlighting something important. I may have focused too much on raw survivability in my original post, when the real issue is probably broader than that.

The difference between RvR, SCs and small scale definitely matters, and I think your point about a defensive tank needing to survive the key burst window is especially relevant.

I also agree with what you said about how rewarding the role actually feels to play. If you give up most of your offensive potential to go full defensive, but your gameplay ends up being mostly about surviving that burst window, providing anti-CC and using a fairly limited set of impactful tools, then it’s fair to ask whether that level of investment is rewarding enough.

Maybe that’s a better way to frame what I was trying to say in the first place. Not simply: “Are defensive tanks tanky enough?” but rather: “Does the game reward players enough for committing so heavily to a defensive playstyle, both in terms of effectiveness and how enjoyable that role feels to play?”

I also think your point about newer players is interesting. If defensive tank gameplay only starts to feel rewarding once you already have a strong understanding of the game and its mechanics, that could also be part of the reason why the role attracts fewer players.

Either way, this is exactly the kind of feedback that makes me rethink part of my original view, which was the whole point of opening the discussion.

I belive You say that you are dps player and you will naturaly think as dps.
Dmg output was never important on tank. And if i will talk about anything i will not subconcious think about tank doing dmg.
And thats why players dont like to play it, same as healers. There is less action-reaction- consequences that are visible at first sight.
Player dont see immiedietly effect of properly delivered cc but see when opponent got killed.
Back to topic
Is specing defspec for rvr is revarding enaugh?
This is also not best question. Defspec are recomended for rvr but is those builds interesting and entertaining?
Tanks playstyle and tools he use are impactfull , but interactions that tank could take in rvr are so limited that it become dull and boring.
And at the same time, mistake are not visible if tank made mistake because - dmg killed players not poorly ussed Challenge(or what ever abbility tank use). Also dps have much more internal interaction durnin fight- ( lets call it rotation) tank have very long cd (10-30s)on its crutial abbility. Dps have abbilities " try again 5s later" tank dont have that in fights that are resolved 10-30s. Tanks Interactions and its effectivnes cannot be evalueteb by player at first glance as dps is.

[Alubert]

Your group benefits from you sacrificing offensive abilities/stats in favor of being tanky.
The biggest benefit is that you absorb a large amount of damage with your Guard ability. This reduces the pressure on healers.
Not focusing on dealing damage is also a big plus because it allows you to focus on positioning (so enemy tanks don’t knock you back), using CC, and so on.

Of course, as a fan of playing defensive tanks, I’d love to see more options for them.

For example, a speed buff proc on the shield, similar to the Zealot’s Charm.

A one-handed weapon with a morale pump/proc, etc.

I’m hoping the new itemization will bring something fresh to the table.

[Illuminati]

We should all admit that there are too many undefendable attacks, tactic based proc damage, etc. that trivialize or bypass defenses. Every tank should have a grumble and mutter type ability, especially when you have DPS healers running around with equivalent mitigation in the form of self-healing, etc.

Heck, simply make pilfer unmitigatable, 20% proc chance without a cooldown, only available to tank classes, and you will counter all the undefendable mess that has been created.

[Culexus]

Maybe that’s a better way to frame what I was trying to say in the first place. Not simply: “Are defensive tanks tanky enough?” but rather: “Does the game reward players enough for committing so heavily to a defensive playstyle, both in terms of effectiveness and how enjoyable that role feels to play?”

It's a real shame this is a solo thread, as that's an interesting topic for discussion and there have been some great comments.

[Jajcek12]

As Alubert says- def tanks helps othere part of team to better manage their resaurces.(HP, position, time in combat,more or less impactfull buffs/debuffs)
But ,is looking at mitigation test are good and interesting gameplay , i belive no.
Are rvr tanks worth new type of interactions - Yes
Some of my personal oppinion part.
But first they must walk out from this rvr pount into blob nonsence and make more then three button worth to press when fight happen. And in current ttk pount(As removing avoidence from guarded target) is irelevant abbility because mdps are melting from dmg under guard anyways and range casters doesnt requires pount to kill target - its only trading ap for distance, and HP pool of target is irelevant in that sence. No pount on tank build would quit this anti gameplay mechanic and start combat and entertaining for players not only for 30s.