Return of Reckoning

Marauder.

Compared to the Mara or BG, and playing in a group where snare and other debuffs are handled better by the tanks and Mara you only need to rotate a handful of skills to maintain high burst dmg (the Choppa's role)

Whilst it's certainy easier to maintain sustained dps in red, I knew several fantastic Choppas and Slayers on live that didn't slot Wot Rules, managed their mechanic well and did tremendous burst whilst at the same time not dying 15 times a fight

And saying Mara is more tanky is false, if anything a laissez faire attitude to the rage mechanic mnagement means the Choppa can become more fragile than the Mara is a more accurate description

i don't see any reason to choose choppa over marauder if you ask me in a srs way. in a non-srs way: choppa is green and offers tons of fun.

cheers.

Firstly, let me clarify I'm not saying the Mara is a weak or underpowered class. However I do feel the commonly held belief that it's a pseudo tank dealing top melee damage is a fallacy long upheld by Order at least in part to draw attention away from the glaringly obvious one-side-only realm-disparity defects in the original design

• +50% AA haste
  +group crit (Encouraged Aim + Leading Shots + Dirty Tricks) - supplemented by +ST crit (Ancestor's Fury)
  Focused Mending
  2x rKD
  Exalted Defences
  Runefang+Emperor's Champion
  Pounce
  Destroy Confidence (1x (core!) tactic neutralizes a whole destro class)
  ID
  Rampage & Shatter Limbs (on prime mdps) vs Bad Gas on a career spec that almost no SH plays

Bretin wrote: A few facts referring to the mentioned points above:

Let's not misuse the word 'fact' when you actually mean 'commonly held belief'

Bretin wrote: 1. The Marauder has the highest base-damage-values of all mdps-classes,

I'm not sure you're factoring in stat contribution coefficients to abilities (at least on Live)
ST dps Marauder vs ST dps Choppa vs ST dps WE - all gear being equal - Choppa wins hands down

Furthermore, no mdps class has more frontloaded burst than the WL, and in a game where (outside of 1v1 and PvE), burst>>>>sustatined - WL has the upper hand

Bretin wrote: since he never had a damage mechanic or a crit-dmg tactic in the past (GI was too unreliable to count as such one). That didn’t change after the buffs to GI, so that the Marauder has the same dmg modifiers as WE/WH/WL (with restrictions, since all these classes got tactics which increases their dmg modifier but which can be used only limited i.e. Vindication, Masterful Treachery, Revenge etc.), while he has a higher base-damage on his abilities.

Glad you brought up GI, let's compare +crit dmg tactics on mdps

• Mara: Growing Instability (7pt +50% crit dmg tactic)
  Choppa: Stab you Gooder (core +25% crit dmg tactic)
  WE: Increased Pain (7pt +50% crit dmg tactic)
  
  WL: Pack Synergy (core +50% crit dmg tactic)
  Slayer: Fierce Might (7pt +10-90% crit dmg tactic)
  WH: Fanatical Cleansing (7pt +50% crit dmg tactic)

Now let's compare the other big component for an always-on boost to ST dps - Autoattacks and the availability of +AA haste tactics on mdps

• Mara: nope, nothing, nada
  Choppa: Git stuck in ( [Core Ability] +35% AA Haste to group, up 20s, cooldown 60s, cost 15 AP and 1 GCD)
  WE: nope, nothing, nada
  
  WL: Pack Hunting (7pt +50% AA Haste tactic - 100% uptime, no AP cost)
  Slayer: Push for More (core +25-50% AA Haste tactic - 100% uptime, no AP cost)
  WH: Fanatical Cleansing (7pt +50% AA Haste tactic - 100% uptime, no AP cost)

Bretin wrote: However, the Marauder would be able to keep pace even if you consider the above mentioned tactics, since he got a equally strong ability which works without any restrictions regarding to reliability and tactic-slots (Mutated Aggressor).

Given that Mara/SH and WL/SW are a wierd 4-way cross mirror

See: (Mara) Mutated Aggressor (9pt career ability - no restriction)
See: (SW) Vengeance of Nagarythe (free/core)
See: (WL) Primal Fury (9pt career ability - sides/back)
See: (SH) Seems like they don't have one (although it's late, so correct me if I'm wrong)

Mara needs to be in melee to benefit from this, SW gets this bonus from the relative safety of range

Bretin wrote: 2. The Marauder is by far the class which deals, almost independently on your target, the most damage in comparison to his maximum damage potential. That means, while every other mdps class is limited to 20-30% of his max. damage potential against some classes and players, the marauder is able to pull off 50-60% of his max. damage potential against the same target. That’s a result of the immense low mitigation a marauder can reach against his target,

I have no clue what you're making up now or where you get these percentage stats...

Bretin wrote: thanks to the best armor debuff,

... and by this you mean, exactly the same Armor debuff that the WL has...

Bretin wrote: a toughness debuff and a tactic which let you ignore 50% of the remaining armor and another skill which does not only profit from the above mentioned penetration-possibilities but also ignores a fixed value of armor by itself.

Piercing Bite is certainly one of the strongest and career-defining tactics available to the Mara - no argument there

Bretin wrote: 3. The Marauder is the onliest

..wait wut?

Bretin wrote: mdps class which has all debuffs you need to kill a target with guard.

I encourage you to try to dps a healer (especially WP) through guard on a Marauder, here in T2 or when we get to T4 without and assist train.

Bretin wrote: Every other dps class relies on a second one because she either lack the heal- or armor debuff. The marauder does not only have both of these abilities, no his versions of those abilities are also the strongest ig (best armor debuff and best healdebuff because it can’t be purged by the wp’s group purge

lol. It _can_ be purged, just not by a WP.

Furthermore if you're looking at ~100% uptime heal debuffs - DoK, BG, IB, WH, WE)

Bretin wrote:on a 5s CD and 10s duration plus 50% heal leech for the Marauder himself. That heal leech contains literally every healing type, including potions and even more preposterous: OVERHEAL!)

Im sure Aza will fix that, hopefully along with CD on Pounce, cleansable ID, melee-range shatter confidence, Rampage not affecting AoE etc and all the other obvious bugs

Bretin wrote: 3.1 A snare which can’t be purged. Therefore the best snare of all MDPS-classes and combined with charge and terrible embrace it makes the Marauder the best MDPS-class when it comes to prevent your target from kiting.

... save WL, who along with a snare of their own, have a snare from their pet and fetch ... oh and let's not forget Pounce without a cooldown ...

Bretin wrote:Also the Marauder has the best HP-debuff ingame, which is the third best debuff after armor and healdebuff you can have on a target. It shouldn’t surprise anyone if I now tell you that this ability is not only bugged but also the best version of HP-debuff the game offers.

Indeed - it (along with Cutting Claw) are compelling reasons to consider a Mara for one of the dps slots, although he will still deal less ST dmg than a Choppa

Bretin wrote: 4. The Marauder wears “Medium Armor”. No other MDPS-Class has more armor than the Marauder besides a WL

Nope - see: WL + Choppa + Slayer

Bretin wrote:who’s using Baited Trap”. The Marauder has the unique ability to make himself immune against armor penetration, if it’s needed. Thus makes the marauder become the toughest MDPS class ingame with only 1 click.

Whilst this was powerful on Live, Aza has said he may not code this (it's not in the game in any capacity atm) the same way it was.

Futhermore, to clarify - this only affected armor penetration from the Attackers WS, not Torment or other Armor bypass abilities

Bretin wrote: tl:dr:

Let’s summarize why the mrd is “op”:
- More damage potential than any other MDPS-class

Clearly not.

Out-dps'd by commensurate gear/ability Choppa/Slayer and depending on target archtype by WH/WE too
Out-dps'd in terms of burst by WL

Bretin wrote: - Combines all debuff types and also got the best versions of those

Mara is the Destro debuff bot, and barring Wounds debuff - has a mirror on the Order side

Bretin wrote: - High combat uptime and the best class to prevent a target from kiting and force them into the assist train

Your argument here is that the Mara snare is not an ailment (but still needs to be able to land it IN melee for it to work) and he has TE

And you're seriously comparing that MORE favorably than spammable Pounce, a pet that can also snare and Fetch?

WL > Mara when it comes to mdps vs kiter

Worth a notable mention here (albeit not mdps) - is the 2x rKD that Order have too to mitigate anti-kiters that Destro has no mirror for

Bretin wrote: - If needed the toughest MDPS-Class by swapping mutation + the hardest class to kill due to self-heal and heal-leech.

Not saying that they (Monstro heal ticks) aren't appreciated - but let's call a spade a spade, it is

--a chance to proc
----a low value HoT
--------if you are within range to land a melee blow
--------(same applies to heal-leech, but further limited to IF the target is being healed)

Bretin wrote: i don't see any reason to choose choppa over marauder if you ask me in a srs way. in a non-srs way: choppa is green and offers tons of fun.

I'd personally say Marauder for solo, Choppa for groups/warband.

Just curious and maybe i'm blind, but where is the source of all the Bretin quotes?

Luth wrote:Just curious and maybe i'm blind, but where is the source of all the Bretin quotes?

Me neither. He probably edited his post because Xaun was a bit more knowledgeable than him, and made him look like a fool. I don't know, lol.

Any edit would be shown in the post afaik.

If you give pounce an CD than the ability is worthles. Than might aswell give them an new ability instead that makes them abit unique and more worth playing. The class is a wreck atm.
I would fix the class first.

i deleted the post before xaun answered because i realized that i have to argue with the common clueless theory tards spamming into every thread here and i am not rly in mood for that. xauns post made me lol tbh

here's the repost and i'm not gonna reply again since every halfbrained person can see how idiotic the post of xaun is


If you want to determine the balance of a class, you must consider the following attributes:

- How much offensive potential does the class have
- How much defensive potential does the class have
- In what way does the defense restrict the offensive and vice versa (if you’d have a number line, with the numbers 1-10 on the left and right side, which represent your defense resp. offensive, and in the middle a 0, how would it affect the ratio at one side if you’d manipulate the other side?)
Those are general things you have to define before you strive for further deliberations about the balance.

A few facts referring to the mentioned points above:

1. The Marauder has the highest base-damage-values of all mdps-classes, since he never had a damage mechanic or a crit-dmg tactic in the past (GI was too unreliable to count as such one). That didn’t change after the buffs to GI, so that the Marauder has the same dmg modifiers as WE/WH/WL (with restrictions, since all these classes got tactics which increases their dmg modifier but which can be used only limited i.e. Vindication, Masterful Treachery, Revenge etc.), while he has a higher base-damage on his abilities.

However, the Marauder would be able to keep pace even if you consider the above mentioned tactics, since he got a equally strong ability which works without any restrictions regarding to reliability and tactic-slots (Mutated Aggressor).

2. The Marauder is by far the class which deals, almost independently on your target, the most damage in comparison to his maximum damage potential. That means, while every other mdps class is limited to 20-30% of his max. damage potential against some classes and players, the marauder is able to pull off 50-60% of his max. damage potential against the same target. That’s a result of the immense low mitigation a marauder can reach against his target, thanks to the best armor debuff, a toughness debuff and a tactic which let you ignore 50% of the remaining armor and another skill which does not only profit from the above mentioned penetration-possibilities but also ignores a fixed value of armor by itself.

3. The Marauder is the onliest mdps class which has all debuffs you need to kill a target with guard. Every other dps class relies on a second one because she either lack the heal- or armor debuff. The marauder does not only have both of these abilities, no his versions of those abilities are also the strongest ig (best armor debuff and best healdebuff because it can’t be purged by the wp’s group purge on a 5s CD and 10s duration plus 50% heal leech for the Marauder himself. That heal leech contains literally every healing type, including potions and even more preposterous: OVERHEAL!)

3.1 A snare which can’t be purged. Therefore the best snare of all MDPS-classes and combined with charge and terrible embrace it makes the Marauder the best MDPS-class when it comes to prevent your target from kiting.
Also the Marauder has the best HP-debuff ingame, which is the third best debuff after armor and healdebuff you can have on a target. It shouldn’t surprise anyone if I now tell you that this ability is not only bugged but also the best version of HP-debuff the game offers.

4. The Marauder wears “Medium Armor”. No other MDPS-Class has more armor than the Marauder besides a WL who’s using Baited Trap”. The Marauder has the unique ability to make himself immune against armor penetration, if it’s needed. Thus makes the marauder become the toughest MDPS class ingame with only 1 click.

tl:dr:

Let’s summarize why the mrd is “op”:
- More damage potential than any other MDPS-class
- Combines all debuff types and also got the best versions of those
- High combat uptime and the best class to prevent a target from kiting and force them into the assist train
- If needed the toughest MDPS-Class by swapping mutation + the hardest class to kill due to self-heal and heal-leech.