Scenario Barriers

[Sulorie]

Honestly guys barriers isn’t the problem

Can you explain?

[Bozzax]

Remove barriers - signed!

EDIT (to stay on topic): Fixing barriers is a step in the right direction

(Off topic: but won't mend broken SCs

Spoiler:

Post#51 » Tue Mar 19, 2024 7:51 pm
viewtopic.php?p=552304#p552304

Here are some reasonable questions to ponder when deciding what a good system is

1. Why are 6man groups allowed to queue SCs with randoms wo being queued in the group ranked queue at the same time? What are the positives / negatives of such a change?

2. What is the purpose of barriers? What other side effects does barriers give? (Good / bad?)

3. What is the intended purpose of surrender and what is the real outcomes (not intended outcome lets say premades playing for a surrender is a thing). Is making a really uneven match end faster making the experience of the queue as a whole better by ending the sc? What would be the benefit of not ending early?

4. Whati s the benefit of tieringat 40/XX vs a tiering that is based around lets say total stats? Would lets say 4+ days playtime be a good tiering when pooled with lets say players that have 300+ days

5. Why do we have a discordant queue, purpose and outcome? What would the benefits be from removing it? What would we loose? Why was it introduced at all? (root cause). Would a larger player pool in queue have any positive effects? (hint we see high rank players like Zarbix (just an example) queuing discordant queue and semi-afking in lake .... is this the wanted effect)

6. What is the benefit of playing one sc map for an entire weekend. Is it fun to play just one map? Could it be more fun with more maps?

7. Why are SCs limited to XvX ..... would it like RvR be possible to use numbers as a balancer? Would adding more players to really uneven be an improvement or would the stronger side feel ill treated?

8. Why are rule sets and maps linked 1:1 and would there be some side effect from having maps and rule sets being decoupled?

9. Would a matchmaker that uses one algorithm at low pops and another one at high pops make it more easy to cope with ebb and flow?

10 How could active sc-maps and open rvr-zones support each other and form a cohesive experience? Can they be linked? Would there be any possitives or is it just a stupid idea with IP and lore?

11. What are the player persona groups that the queue tries to make happy and what are these groups concerns and what makes them satisfied (what metrics is actually important)?

12. Could win streaks be a reason for the matchmaker to make harder opposition for that strong side? What would the benefit be? What would the downside be?

13. The ppl playing suppot classes seem to be on ATL making queue balancing even more complicated ... so would it be an improvement to promote good support play (reward this more) and possibly look at the multi-year power creep of dps that seem to be a RoR thing (a tad speculative but at least it looks that way)

14. Hope you get it right

)

[saupreusse]

Honestly guys barriers isn’t the problem

This post is about barriers only, if you have other suggestions you should open up a new thread.

[Culexus]

It's great to hear that the matchmaking system is being worked on. Removing barriers and returning to mythic-style scenarios should accompany any reworked matchmaking system when it drops though. It can't be considered a scenario rework if one of the most glaring issues is left as is.

And please listen to the community and revert back to guards rather than endlessly tweaking barriers to try and make them work. If there's a problem with ranged kiting groups falling back to guards in ranked, just have barriers in ranked only. There's no sense in wrecking scenarios for 99% of the player base to address a niche problem in niche content.

[lemao]

It's great to hear that the matchmaking system is being worked on. Removing barriers and returning to mythic-style scenarios should accompany any reworked matchmaking system when it drops though. It can't be considered a scenario rework if one of the most glaring issues is left as is.

And please listen to the community and revert back to guards rather than endlessly tweaking barriers to try and make them work. If there's a problem with ranged kiting groups falling back to guards in ranked, just have barriers in ranked only. There's no sense in wrecking scenarios for 99% of the player base to address a niche problem in niche content.

There was 0 issues with people kiting to guards in ranked.
Ranked is barely played, let alone ranged comps.
The problem is that even in normal scs premades run to their spawn without even engaging once in the fight when they see another strong 6 man in the enemy team.

[Nameless]

It's great to hear that the matchmaking system is being worked on. Removing barriers and returning to mythic-style scenarios should accompany any reworked matchmaking system when it drops though. It can't be considered a scenario rework if one of the most glaring issues is left as is.

And please listen to the community and revert back to guards rather than endlessly tweaking barriers to try and make them work. If there's a problem with ranged kiting groups falling back to guards in ranked, just have barriers in ranked only. There's no sense in wrecking scenarios for 99% of the player base to address a niche problem in niche content.

There was 0 issues with people kiting to guards in ranked.
Ranked is barely played, let alone ranged comps.
The problem is that even in normal scs premades run to their spawn without even engaging once in the fight when they see another strong 6 man in the enemy team.

when premade do that just run the objectives and win the scen. That how they are suppose to be played. Cos now when u see enemy strong premade your premade doesnt leave the spawn at all. Cant see how that is better than other

[lemao]

It's great to hear that the matchmaking system is being worked on. Removing barriers and returning to mythic-style scenarios should accompany any reworked matchmaking system when it drops though. It can't be considered a scenario rework if one of the most glaring issues is left as is.

And please listen to the community and revert back to guards rather than endlessly tweaking barriers to try and make them work. If there's a problem with ranged kiting groups falling back to guards in ranked, just have barriers in ranked only. There's no sense in wrecking scenarios for 99% of the player base to address a niche problem in niche content.

There was 0 issues with people kiting to guards in ranked.
Ranked is barely played, let alone ranged comps.
The problem is that even in normal scs premades run to their spawn without even engaging once in the fight when they see another strong 6 man in the enemy team.

when premade do that just run the objectives and win the scen. That how they are suppose to be played. Cos now when u see enemy strong premade your premade doesnt leave the spawn at all. Cant see how that is better than other

All I am saying is barriers are pretty useless. I am on your side here.
It is a player behavior issue.
People or even premades who refuse to fight will keep doing so, it does not matter what they change.

[georgehabadasher]

Three things that made scenarios worse than on live:

1. Focus on cage match over objectives. There used to be more newbie friendly scenarios where you could still be "competitive" by focusing on the objectives (like old Thunder Valley and Blood) but they have been reworked into fight-in-a-box situation.

2. Barriers - when your team is getting overwhelmed the barriers (and the aggressive afk timer) remove the ability to pull yourselves together especially when death is waiting 10 feet outside the barrier.

3. Reduced safe zones/guards - yeah some folks could kite back to the guards as mentioned above but, you know what, just go finish the objective and make them come to you. The guards were an anti-camping mechanism and could, in some situations, allow for a comeback if the other team allowed themselves to get punted into the guards. This made scenarios more competitive by giving the underdog hope.

Bottom line is we got to where we are because the development team was too busy servicing the winning premades and forgot that you need to make it fun for the losing side as well.

This is a great point and explains why pug and new players are driven away from the server in such numbers.

Also great post by Hazmy.

I'd only add that guard kills should also give renown as they did on live.

[Ninjagon]

Honestly guys barriers isn’t the problem

They are a big problem. There is no sense to go outside of barrier, when that place is camped by strong premades. Yet the aggressive "AFK" timer still force you, to go out, even when you have minimum chance to survive there. People die in different time in SCs, so the resurrect time is usually different for them too (in 25 sec window). That means, even if you want to be brave and still fight back, regrouping and go outside together can be very difficult task.

Guards are not the ultimate solution for everything and every SC, but they are by far better then barriers.

Just imagine to have no guards but a barrier at RvR warcamp. Would you do that one step out, when the enemy is camping you there by few warbands?
You don't.

[Avernus]

To me those barriers are sign that i have only 2 main options:

1. Go and kill enemy team, most likely by stomping.
2. Be stomped and farmed.

Yes, you do have some more or less viable options, like playing objectives, hiding, ganking, leaving etc but...

You are just got into sc which is lost before it even started? Well, barrier says "go feed or go leave". Even if you have literally ZERO chance to achieve anything meaningful on this sc - you are still obliged to play (punchbag) by this sc design.

Yes, i don't care about BO at all. For me, sc in this game were always a place to fight, not to running circles (yes, i'm looking at you, dwarven road). Long, long time ago (when the game was still officially alive) sc victory did ment something. But now, the only reason to play them (for me, at least) - is to find some group fight quicky (and, hopefully, this fight will be more or less even).

Summary - i ABSOLUTELY hate barriers.

P.S. If i want to go some BO - i'll go for boxes - at least they do reward you for the delivering.