Return of Reckoning

georgehabadasher wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 11:08 am

what63 wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 7:29 am

leftayparxoun wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2024 10:40 am

Spoiler:

First of all, thank you for the reply.
Let me begin by examining our biggest disagreements.


From my understanding of what you wrote, you are proposing 3 things here:

• Point 1: Zerging the content is a valid approach if it results in an overall fun experience

• Point 2: Increase the number of rewards, scaling with the number of participants (e.g. City) to accommodate the above

• Point 3: No differentiation between warband players and others(leeches) when it comes to rolls

Here is my rebuttal to each of them, being as concise as I can:

• Point 1: The new versions of the PQs were designed with traditional MMO raids in mind. This can be easily inferred from the mechanics present, the amount of coordination required to clear them and the developers' own words:
  
  
  They were designed to be tackled by 24 people and by warbands. Disagreeing with this decision on a personal level, on the virtue of the content having existed as a PQ until now is fine. However, as long as these new raid versions of the content are well received by the community (Which so far they are, both from personal experience running and leading them, and from what I see over on various RoR discords) we need to accept them. I also point you towards the guidelines of this server:
  
  I also agree that instanced versions of the PQs would have been ideal. But that would expend valuable dev-time at the moment that is better off used in other places. The problem lies in how to preserve the current vision without wasting too much effort from the devs.
  
  If you dislike the absence of more zergy, open-PVE content, I would perhaps recommend writing a forum post for in favor of expanding on the roaming overworld bosses, than have been so far tied to specific Events, and making them more of a permanent feature.
  
  Finally, for the first point, you raise the following concern:
  
  And in principle you are correct; the content should not discriminate. And it won't. It will just work as designed; for up to 24 people. What can potentially discriminate are the people organizing and leading groups for the content. Over on Destro we have had several non-discriminatory pug-ch.22 wbs happening in the last week or so. And from a personal standpoint while leading, I plan on taking in anyone as long as there is a spot open for them (and we can sufficiently clear the content). I hope Order ch.22 isn't exclusively being ran by full guild/alliance warbands, but even if so, it's up to the rest of the players to organize themselves for it. The guides on the wiki are more than sufficient to tackle the raids for any warband.

• Point 2: Referring back to my original argument regarding why the rewards should be exactly 24:
  
  Arguing in favour of less than 24 rewards has some merit, but it just feels bad to be that way in my opinion. Even if it's just white bags with some war tokens, rewards should be there for the few bottom spots.
  Arguing in favour of more than 24 rewards makes no sense because the content is designed for 24 and due to the organizational drama it promotes.

• Point 3: What I wrote on my original post regarding warbands having to be treated advantageously still stands.
  
  If a system to differentiate wb members from leech isn't implemented then it would naturally incentivize leeching (especially on dps classes). Judging from personal experience before the PQs were removed at the Ability Rework patch, leeching isn't tolerated. The system where a warband competes with a couple leechers for rolls makes the whole experience quite negative and is an extra source of drama that in the past we always strove to avoid.
  Wb + leeches is not a stable state for running the PQs.
  If the situation goes on without intervention, you'll find out soon that either leeches will become extinct naturally (by people in warbands flaming them or flat-out refusing to complete the PQs out of spite), or in the end it will become what you propose; someone calls for ch.22 in /5 and then 50+ talisman starved leeches pop up there and try to zerg it down (because all the warbands gave up and this is the only way to do the PQ left for them). Or the content just dies. Do we really want any of this negativity?

For the rest of the points you raise regarding contribution and the reward system, I will be posting in a separate reply (to make thing less cluttered). See below.

All of this still hinges on the notion that they are no longer PQs; While the clear goal is to make the content a warband activity, and it being "marketed" as such outside of the game, this is entirely moot on the whole and for all practical purposes only indicates that the content needs at least a warband present to function, given the more important in-game factors. The only thing that truly matters is the in-game implementation. As of right now, the PQs do not state that they are designed for exactly 24 people. They do not state that they are designed for 18-24 players. Or any other variation that lets the 95% of people that typically do not invest in the meta surrounding a game know that they are not welcome. The PQ tag reads "Designed for 24+ players". The PQs are advertised on the war report. And of course, are called PQs and function as PQs.

Part of my point is that running the PQ with a warband+leeches should be seen as the norm. This is in fact one of the few factors that can truly make them not instantly be clearable with a 100% success rate by said warbands. Any additional people outside the warbands still have to learn the mechanics for things to go smoothly, just like in open PvP. And yes, sometimes they will cause wipes. The solution? Teach them the mechanic. It's a public quest in an MMO. It's not supposed to be a sterile environment. Eventually these guys will nail it aswell and feel more inclined to join the warbands instead, or at the very least, be able to participate in a more meaningful manner. This is the kind of stuff that makes the game feel more alive, more like an actual MMO. Far, far more so than trying to make every system into sterile gear farms for the people already inclined to organize and in the know.

And well, if this all seems like some kind of outlandish notion, I honestly don't even know what to think. It really just sucks to see this kind of mindset applied even to overworld PvE activities of all things. It's on the same level as if a warband started threatening not to play and flaming some new guy playing a level 34 solo engi because he's "leeching" tokens and doing some bad punts/staggers here and there causing frustration. Meanwhile the correct approach would be to accept that he's entitled to some of the loot, and to attempt explaining the importance of CC including immunity timers. PQs are the PvE equivalent of RvR.

Exactly this.

If we want to have raid content that requires exactly 24 players, then it follows that the content should be instanced, not a public quest in the open world. Consistently implementing mechanics which gate casual players from content in an attempt to get them to join groups is the reason the game's population is in the state it is.

Honestly, it's a little surprising to see Only from E&C advocating such changes. I've always perceived your guild generally, and you specifically as very welcoming to and supporting of new and casual players. It's quite a comment on the state of the game's reward systems and community that even the most casual friendly guilds and players are suggesting changes like this.

what63 wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 7:29 am All of this still hinges on the notion that they are no longer PQs; While the clear goal is to make the content a warband activity, and it being "marketed" as such outside of the game, this is entirely moot on the whole and for all practical purposes only indicates that the content needs at least a warband present to function, given the more important in-game factors. The only thing that truly matters is the in-game implementation. As of right now, the PQs do not state that they are designed for exactly 24 people. They do not state that they are designed for 18-24 players. Or any other variation that lets the 95% of people that typically do not invest in the meta surrounding a game know that they are not welcome. The PQ tag reads "Designed for 24+ players". The PQs are advertised on the war report. And of course, are called PQs and function as PQs.

what63 wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 7:29 am Part of my point is that running the PQ with a warband+leeches should be seen as the norm. This is in fact one of the few factors that can truly make them not instantly be clearable with a 100% success rate by said warbands. Any additional people outside the warbands still have to learn the mechanics for things to go smoothly, just like in open PvP. And yes, sometimes they will cause wipes. The solution? Teach them the mechanic. It's a public quest in an MMO. It's not supposed to be a sterile environment. Eventually these guys will nail it aswell and feel more inclined to join the warbands instead, or at the very least, be able to participate in a more meaningful manner. This is the kind of stuff that makes the game feel more alive, more like an actual MMO. Far, far more so than trying to make every system into sterile gear farms for the people already inclined to organize and in the know.

• Leeches usually cannot cause wipes and normally make clearing the PQ easier. The problem lies in that they drive people away from the content: Even in the case where they do not know/understand the mechanics at all the worst thing they can do is either taunting/challenging the boss/heroes or placing puddles in the wrong spots in the Elf raids. This is 95% of the time not enough to cause any sort of big issues. The main requirements for clearing the PQs is usually not damage checks, but coordination in timing certain mechanics to avoid wipes. That can ONLY be performed by the warband. No leech will try to destroy a time objective. They will not taunt away hero ads trying to empower the Boss. They will simply add some more damage into the mix. The people doing the important stuff (the ones that would result in a wipe if not performed) are those being in the warband. It is for sure not a 100% failproof strategy as you imply, especially for pug warbands who take everyone in. What leeching causes is that the people who actually perform the hardest tasks is to sometimes get no rewards even if the warband passes things to them. Why that is a problem, you will see in the next point

• Teaching is a hard job: I don't like to assume and I'm a curious guy by nature, so I'm going to ask directly; have you led a ch.22 warband lately or before Dec 2023? Especially a pug one? From my experience since joining the game around a year ago and having led a pug/semi-pug warband with discord around 12 times:
  • Every time you have to explain the mechanics from scratch: A good 60% of people are either familiar with the content or have done again with you, but you still gotta explain it again for them and for the new players to make sure nothing goes wrong
  • Forming the warband takes a ton of time: At best 15 minutes, at worst 40 minutes near EU primetime. No exaggeration. And it's not an old issue; a week ago or so we needed around 35 minutes due to the lack of tanks available.
  • Getting everyone in sync takes time: People are unfamiliar with discord, need help with finding the proper route to certain PQs and even sometimes don't perfectly understand English.
  Overall, from personal experience, it takes a lot more energy to lead pug ch.22 than to do any RvR warband. But people still wish to do that. And leeching hurts them indirectly. When encountering a leech I usually take/took this approach:
  • First I ask them to opt out and either stay or leave, or ask them to join us in case we are still a few people off. I repeat the message once more in case I get no reply
  • If that doesn't work and they either ignore me or they reply in a dismissive manner, I inform that some new player(s) might not get their rewards because of them and to reconsider. Sometimes offering them a spot on next week's raid.
  • If that also doesn't work, I usually go along with their leeching, because I'm mindful of other peoples time. I've already wasted upwards of 30 minutes of ~23 people other than me so, even if some of them get no rewards for what we are about to do, at least the majority will be pleased.
  And I ask again, do you have an idea how taxing it is to both juggle speaking on discord trying to get people organized, explaining to them there that they might not get any rewards even if I and some other close friends pass our bags and also be in back and forth in-game pms with various leeches about minimizing the harm done?
  
  You might say that there is no harm done. But even if 1 of the people present, especially the new players, decide that the content is not for them either because of the lack of rewards or the whole process taking too long, then that's potentially 2 additional minutes of /5 recruiting next week. And that adds up from week to week if leeching behavior is encouraged. Maybe the leeches will take the place of people who give up for the next runs. But usually people leech because they want to invest less effort, not because they missed their spot. I always invite them to our discord anyway to be there and ready for next week if they wish to.

• Teaching people in and out of discord at the same time is just not possible: Maybe it is in the case of fully organized (guild/alliance) warbands that help the leeches present while also tackling the actual raid in a relaxed manner. I cannot multitask that well. In the past I had assigned the role of communicating with people who were in our warband but not in discord to another friend/guild member present, but even for them, typing and doing their role is taxing.

• There is no knowledge barrier! Everyone with the ability to visit the wiki and read the ch.22 page (even if using auto translate when they don't understand English) should be able to complete the raids following the instructions. If they are so inclined, they can also lead a warband using them

what63 wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 7:29 am And well, if this all seems like some kind of outlandish notion, I honestly don't even know what to think. It really just sucks to see this kind of mindset applied even to overworld PvE activities of all things. It's on the same level as if a warband started threatening not to play and flaming some new guy playing a level 34 solo engi because he's "leeching" tokens and doing some bad punts/staggers here and there causing frustration. Meanwhile the correct approach would be to accept that he's entitled to some of the loot, and to attempt explaining the importance of CC including immunity timers. PQs are the PvE equivalent of RvR.

• Give up on the vision of 24-man raids with their current implementation and reward like 50 bags per PQ. They will be trivialized and more people will be drawn away from RvR, but everyone would be happy

• Alternatively, bite the bullet and implement separate instanced versions of all 6 PQs, so people can either choose the hard, just 24 version with better rewards, or go with the normal version that will be easier if assisted by leeches, but might proportionately grant less rewards for everyone involved.

georgehabadasher wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 11:08 am Exactly this.

If we want to have raid content that requires exactly 24 players, then it follows that the content should be instanced, not a public quest in the open world. Consistently implementing mechanics which gate casual players from content in an attempt to get them to join groups is the reason the game's population is in the state it is.

georgehabadasher wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 11:08 am Honestly, it's a little surprising to see Only from E&C advocating such changes. I've always perceived your guild generally, and you specifically as very welcoming to and supporting of new and casual players. It's quite a comment on the state of the game's reward systems and community that even the most casual friendly guilds and players are suggesting changes like this.

If we want to have raid content that requires exactly 24 players, then it follows that the content should be instanced, not a public quest in the open world. Consistently implementing mechanics which gate casual players from content in an attempt to get them to join groups is the reason the game's population is in the state it is.

Honestly, it's a little surprising to see Only from E&C advocating such changes. I've always perceived your guild generally, and you specifically as very welcoming to and supporting of new and casual players. It's quite a comment on the state of the game's reward systems and community that even the most casual friendly guilds and players are suggesting changes like this.

leftayparxoun wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 11:53 am

Spoiler:

what63 wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 7:29 am All of this still hinges on the notion that they are no longer PQs; While the clear goal is to make the content a warband activity, and it being "marketed" as such outside of the game, this is entirely moot on the whole and for all practical purposes only indicates that the content needs at least a warband present to function, given the more important in-game factors. The only thing that truly matters is the in-game implementation. As of right now, the PQs do not state that they are designed for exactly 24 people. They do not state that they are designed for 18-24 players. Or any other variation that lets the 95% of people that typically do not invest in the meta surrounding a game know that they are not welcome. The PQ tag reads "Designed for 24+ players". The PQs are advertised on the war report. And of course, are called PQs and function as PQs.

You are correct about all those discrepancies. It seems that the devs have even more things to correct if they wish to stick to their vision. Only correction I want to make here is that there is no so ''exclusionary META'' in the proposed way of tackling ch.22. Sure, some guild wbs may not take outsiders, but regarding pug/open warbands, at most require joining discord without a mic. Gear/Renown rank/Class was almost never the deciding factor for taking someone in. If people for whatever reason refuse to comply to the bare minimum requirements they can still do ch.22 Hard PQs by forming their own warband without any of those prerequisites.

what63 wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 7:29 am Part of my point is that running the PQ with a warband+leeches should be seen as the norm. This is in fact one of the few factors that can truly make them not instantly be clearable with a 100% success rate by said warbands. Any additional people outside the warbands still have to learn the mechanics for things to go smoothly, just like in open PvP. And yes, sometimes they will cause wipes. The solution? Teach them the mechanic. It's a public quest in an MMO. It's not supposed to be a sterile environment. Eventually these guys will nail it aswell and feel more inclined to join the warbands instead, or at the very least, be able to participate in a more meaningful manner. This is the kind of stuff that makes the game feel more alive, more like an actual MMO. Far, far more so than trying to make every system into sterile gear farms for the people already inclined to organize and in the know.

A few things here.

• Leeches usually cannot cause wipes and normally make clearing the PQ easier. The problem lies in that they drive people away from the content: Even in the case where they do not know/understand the mechanics at all the worst thing they can do is either taunting/challenging the boss/heroes or placing puddles in the wrong spots in the Elf raids. This is 95% of the time not enough to cause any sort of big issues. The main requirements for clearing the PQs is usually not damage checks, but coordination in timing certain mechanics to avoid wipes. That can ONLY be performed by the warband. No leech will try to destroy a time objective. They will not taunt away hero ads trying to empower the Boss. They will simply add some more damage into the mix. The people doing the important stuff (the ones that would result in a wipe if not performed) are those being in the warband. It is for sure not a 100% failproof strategy as you imply, especially for pug warbands who take everyone in. What leeching causes is that the people who actually perform the hardest tasks is to sometimes get no rewards even if the warband passes things to them. Why that is a problem, you will see in the next point

• Teaching is a hard job: I don't like to assume and I'm a curious guy by nature, so I'm going to ask directly; have you led a ch.22 warband lately or before Dec 2023? Especially a pug one? From my experience since joining the game around a year ago and having led a pug/semi-pug warband with discord around 12 times:
  • Every time you have to explain the mechanics from scratch: A good 60% of people are either familiar with the content or have done again with you, but you still gotta explain it again for them and for the new players to make sure nothing goes wrong
  • Forming the warband takes a ton of time: At best 15 minutes, at worst 40 minutes near EU primetime. No exaggeration. And it's not an old issue; a week ago or so we needed around 35 minutes due to the lack of tanks available.
  • Getting everyone in sync takes time: People are unfamiliar with discord, need help with finding the proper route to certain PQs and even sometimes don't perfectly understand English.
  Overall, from personal experience, it takes a lot more energy to lead pug ch.22 than to do any RvR warband. But people still wish to do that. And leeching hurts them indirectly. When encountering a leech I usually take/took this approach:
  • First I ask them to opt out and either stay or leave, or ask them to join us in case we are still a few people off. I repeat the message once more in case I get no reply
  • If that doesn't work and they either ignore me or they reply in a dismissive manner, I inform that some new player(s) might not get their rewards because of them and to reconsider. Sometimes offering them a spot on next week's raid.
  • If that also doesn't work, I usually go along with their leeching, because I'm mindful of other peoples time. I've already wasted upwards of 30 minutes of ~23 people other than me so, even if some of them get no rewards for what we are about to do, at least the majority will be pleased.
  And I ask again, do you have an idea how taxing it is to both juggle speaking on discord trying to get people organized, explaining to them there that they might not get any rewards even if I and some other close friends pass our bags and also be in back and forth in-game pms with various leeches about minimizing the harm done?
  
  You might say that there is no harm done. But even if 1 of the people present, especially the new players, decide that the content is not for them either because of the lack of rewards or the whole process taking too long, then that's potentially 2 additional minutes of /5 recruiting next week. And that adds up from week to week if leeching behavior is encouraged. Maybe the leeches will take the place of people who give up for the next runs. But usually people leech because they want to invest less effort, not because they missed their spot. I always invite them to our discord anyway to be there and ready for next week if they wish to.

• Teaching people in and out of discord at the same time is just not possible: Maybe it is in the case of fully organized (guild/alliance) warbands that help the leeches present while also tackling the actual raid in a relaxed manner. I cannot multitask that well. In the past I had assigned the role of communicating with people who were in our warband but not in discord to another friend/guild member present, but even for them, typing and doing their role is taxing.

• There is no knowledge barrier! Everyone with the ability to visit the wiki and read the ch.22 page (even if using auto translate when they don't understand English) should be able to complete the raids following the instructions. If they are so inclined, they can also lead a warband using them

Finally, I want to reassure you, ch.22 in the warbands I've led (and I assume the same for other pug ch.22 wbs) is anything but a sterile experience. Lots of unexpected things happen, you always have fun seeing people react to a new (for them) content and I always try to liven up the atmosphere in discord. It might be hard (in various ways) to do everything at the same time, but my number one objective is for everyone besides me to have fun and to eliminate any source of frustrations for them.

what63 wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 7:29 am And well, if this all seems like some kind of outlandish notion, I honestly don't even know what to think. It really just sucks to see this kind of mindset applied even to overworld PvE activities of all things. It's on the same level as if a warband started threatening not to play and flaming some new guy playing a level 34 solo engi because he's "leeching" tokens and doing some bad punts/staggers here and there causing frustration. Meanwhile the correct approach would be to accept that he's entitled to some of the loot, and to attempt explaining the importance of CC including immunity timers. PQs are the PvE equivalent of RvR.

Please do not misunderstand me. I am not mad at anyone here. I'm just frustrated and sad due to the whole situation leading to drama. I always appreciate people playing by the rules, but in my eyes it just comes down to having empathy towards the people struggling to make the content available for everyone. Even if that means waiting a few more days for it.
Maybe I'm completely in the wrong and leeching should be tolerated and even promoted. It's just that from my past experiences it always has lead to frustration which I want to avoid at all costs.

If that's the case and I'm selfish without realizing it then I urge the devs to take drastic measures towards either direction:

• Give up on the vision of 24-man raids with their current implementation and reward like 50 bags per PQ. They will be trivialized and more people will be drawn away from RvR, but everyone would be happy

• Alternatively, bite the bullet and implement separate instanced versions of all 6 PQs, so people can either choose the hard, just 24 version with better rewards, or go with the normal version that will be easier if assisted by leeches, but might proportionately grant less rewards for everyone involved.

I don't think there is any other way to make everyone happy here. And for sure I cannot bother arguing for/against this issue anymore until the dev-team's stance becomes more clear. I felt like I had to give my input, but it has only made me less eager to keep organizing runs when I'm back from my vacation.

Sincerely,