The state of Slayer: An unbalanced mess.

[agemennon675]

Some non Slayers/Choppas seem to forget that these classes already have ST speccs. 2h Speccs. Which are broken and terrible. So your lack of understanding seems to be ignorance. Instead of fixing those speccs, they rather nerf things randomly and unnecessarily.

I can't wait for the DPS rebalance. Wait six months more and get another not so "elegant" fix, after they worked hard for two years for faster iterations on balance changes and ease of implementation. But, by all means, do not touch the issue of ST speccs being bad and broken.

I don't understand why I'm ignorant. I never said that the 2H spec was not terrible or broken. I totally agree on that.

In what way the nerf is random or unnecessarily ? They were the only classes able to do good ST AND good AoE with one build, for years. It's not for nothing that Slayer/Choppa are still very strong in 6v6/12v12 and that 2xSlayers compositions have always been meta in 6v6.

What I mean is that the Slayer or Choppa could spec mainly in AoE, without losing their ability to have a very good ST. And, before this patch, these were the only classes capable of doing this. We could very well have 2xSlayers compositions with Brute Force/Wild Gambit/Flanking/Push For More and have AoE AND ST pressure without problem. As it stands, the nerf requires you to take a tactic and play with an IB/BO if the Slayer/Choppa want to stay at a similar level before patch.

Once again, the solution applied may not be ideal or at the best time, since the root of the problem, from my point of view, lies in several things such as:
- A ST 2H spec not viable because it is very complicated to set up (forced to play red)
- The mechanics of the class which are totally ignored (namely the use of exhaustive blows)

You're just objectively wrong though. And you're only focusing on Slayer which is a clear indicator you didn't even read the entire post. Please don't quote random bits of my post to try and serve your purpose, that's cringe. As it stands nothing has changed for choppa except that it loses a tactic. It runs 6 sov and plays with BO+Chosen to replace triumphant and completely bypass the 20% AA damage debuff. This is not even getting into the rest of what I posted and talked about and why these changes are 1) not good 2) unnecessary and 3) out of place in a meta where these classes already weren't considered meta. Most people had already stopped playing Slayer just before these changes happened and started to play WL comps again.

I think you're blindly defending these changes for some unknown reason, but you don't actually comprehend or understand the nuance of the classes to know how terrible these are specifically for Slayer. Not trying to be rude but I'm just saying your responses are very fragmented and just focused on dumping on a single class, similar to the recent horrendous changes that have been made to it.

You are objectively wrong as well, SL and Choppa had too much aoe in their ST spec, completely ignoring this fact for some reason, even in OP most of the complaints are about aoe skills in ST build, now SL vs Choppa comparison is another topic of realm balance and both sides have different tools that you cannot just compare certain builds like getting away with not using triumphant set

[Breakfings]

I don't understand why I'm ignorant. I never said that the 2H spec was not terrible or broken. I totally agree on that.

In what way the nerf is random or unnecessarily ? They were the only classes able to do good ST AND good AoE with one build, for years. It's not for nothing that Slayer/Choppa are still very strong in 6v6/12v12 and that 2xSlayers compositions have always been meta in 6v6.

What I mean is that the Slayer or Choppa could spec mainly in AoE, without losing their ability to have a very good ST. And, before this patch, these were the only classes capable of doing this. We could very well have 2xSlayers compositions with Brute Force/Wild Gambit/Flanking/Push For More and have AoE AND ST pressure without problem. As it stands, the nerf requires you to take a tactic and play with an IB/BO if the Slayer/Choppa want to stay at a similar level before patch.

Once again, the solution applied may not be ideal or at the best time, since the root of the problem, from my point of view, lies in several things such as:
- A ST 2H spec not viable because it is very complicated to set up (forced to play red)
- The mechanics of the class which are totally ignored (namely the use of exhaustive blows)

You're just objectively wrong though. And you're only focusing on Slayer which is a clear indicator you didn't even read the entire post. Please don't quote random bits of my post to try and serve your purpose, that's cringe. As it stands nothing has changed for choppa except that it loses a tactic. It runs 6 sov and plays with BO+Chosen to replace triumphant and completely bypass the 20% AA damage debuff. This is not even getting into the rest of what I posted and talked about and why these changes are 1) not good 2) unnecessary and 3) out of place in a meta where these classes already weren't considered meta. Most people had already stopped playing Slayer just before these changes happened and started to play WL comps again.

I think you're blindly defending these changes for some unknown reason, but you don't actually comprehend or understand the nuance of the classes to know how terrible these are specifically for Slayer. Not trying to be rude but I'm just saying your responses are very fragmented and just focused on dumping on a single class, similar to the recent horrendous changes that have been made to it.

You are objectively wrong as well, SL and Choppa had too much aoe in their ST spec, completely ignoring this fact for some reason, even in OP most of the complaints are about aoe skills in ST build, now SL vs Choppa comparison is another topic of realm balance and both sides have different tools that you cannot just compare certain builds like getting away with not using triumphant set

You are very clearly not reading the entire post. Let me break this down for you so you can understand, alright?

- Inevitable Doom: CD increased to 15 seconds from 5 seconds

- Retribution: Removed the damage every second (keeps the reflect damage).

- Accuracy: Now additionally reduces CD of Inevitable Doom to 5 seconds and Retribution now deals ( 180 + 1.0 x DB + 1.5 x WDPS ) damage every second. Also now reduces your Auto Attack damage by 20%. - Literally why? Lol.


This means Slayer either doesn't run push for more, which is 50% AA speed, or it doesn't run flanking, in addition to losing either Rampage or Shatter Limbs. This is a NERF TO ST not their AOE. They are being forced to run an AOE tactic. So, when you sit there and say that these classes "had too much aoe in their build" you're very obviously indicating that you don't know what you're talking about, and you aren't actually reading what's being said. What part of adding 24-man Flurry to Slayer made it have less AOE? So, losing 50% AA speed and 20% auto attack damage nerfs their AOE? That's not a nerf to their single target? Inevitable Doom was already cleansable so there was an active counter to it for the standard build so wtf is the reason that it has to lose more on top of what was already changed? And no, you don't drop the tactic on Slayer to run 15 second ID with no damage on Retribution, that's appalling. Also, what part of nothing changed for Choppa did you not understand? If anything, all that happened to it was it's now forced to run 24-man lotsa choppin for both left and right tree builds which means it has MORE AOE than before. Additionally, you do not drop the extra choppin' tactic on choppa for either left or right tree, it's not how the game works.

If you're going to advocate for these classes to lose their cleave comp identities, you need to first consider the fact that choppa before furious stompin' was still a meta class with Choppa/WE and its primary source of AOE was Bring it on! until furious stompin' was introduced, and double slayer was the most effective comp for order after the nerf to WL/WH. The issue with Slayer has typically been Shatter Limbs, despite what people think about its counter able damage etc, stacking shatter in RVR and spreading 2 in small-scale in addition to its damage is what made the class so good.

If slayer and choppa are going to completely lose their cleave damage and have their identities completely altered and reshaped, then you don't do it by making half assed changes that make no sense. Slayer was already pushed out of the meta in RVR and Choppa was far and away NOT the best DPS class in Small-Scale, not by a long shot. So please do not sit there and tell me that adding bad AOE tactics and nerfing single target damage is in any way a fix to a class because it forces bad decisions for builds. Rune Of Absorption doesn't work on Slayer because it doesn't get 88% crit damage, fierce might is a worthless tactic. Additionally, Slayer loses its auto attack haste during channels which is another reason why ROA isn't slotted. If people want mirrored classes then they should play another game, because homogenizing class identity and melting down what makes them unique into the same molds isn't going to solve anything and it's already proven that patches like this aren't functional.

It's funny to me that people who don't play these classes suddenly think they understand what goes into them to make them good because they can read an ability or listen to someone say "braindead AOE" and suddenly think they have a PHD in Choppin' and Slayin', let me tell you, you don't. And if you want this game to last for a long time and stay healthy the balance team will need to figure out a better approach to class balance as a whole because the way it is now EVERYTHING is nerfed and really kinda not fun, except for a handful of things.

Once again, all Choppa lost in the grand scheme here is the ability to counter KOTBS wounds debuff with its tactic, and it lost the capability of running jagged edge or wounds in RVR, which at the end of the day doesn't matter. It still gets heal debuff/AP return/stomp/extra choppin/GTDC and morale 4. It can do this as ST without punishment as well, and if you run the correct comp for it it completely bypasses the need for 4 pc triumphant. This workaround is only available to one of the two classes. If you spent time playing the classes and understood the game the way that you THINK you do, you'd see the flaws and gaps in the changes here and likely you'd reconsider opening your mouth that someone who plays these classes is "objectively wrong".

If you're going to respond to my posts, I recommend you make sure to read all of what's been said and make sure that you're informed, otherwise I'm going to keep having to repeat myself which is a waste of both of our time.

[Breakfings]

You wouldn't want invite IB to group to get WS buff?

IB only gets a self-buff for weapon skill called watch an learn that does not apply to its oath friend, whereas Black Orc gets a weapon skill buff it can apply without a cooldown to its defensive targets.

[Breakfings]

Let me further explain why these changes aren't good.

Pre-changes, when Slayer had 100% Rampage (I'm NOT advocating for Rampage to bypass Morales and Guard damage in any way) Accuracy made sense because it could deal its damage while countering the Morale pump Destro tanks have in RVR. This meant that Slayer had a place in the lakes. Choppa had the pull which was a huge range with high damage that could be stacked effectively just like Rampage, and it had Chop Fasta to counter Shatter Limbs. This made sense, believe it or not because Choppa also got to have crit damage. So it could run crit damage+jagged or crit damage+extra choppin to hit backlines. Choppas aren't a pressure class, they're a burst class. Slayers are a pressure class and had windows of burst capabilities that weren't the same as what Choppas had. It was for this reason both classes were competitive with each other both in RVR and Small-Scale.

After Rampage was reworked Slayer saw an increase in power in Small-Scale and a further reduction to their power in RVR, which I explained in a previous post. This is because Accuracy is not a good tactic without the mitigation bypass and limits the classes capabilities. The reason this existed in the first place is because of Destined For Victory and You'z See me block dat?! which allow destro tanks to essentially morale on demand, which is insanely powerful especially for Black Orc who has Solar Flare.

These changes in addition to KOTBS losing its AOE snare that was meant to mirror covenant of celerity for melee combat and whispering winds being straight nerfed to hinder the old Slayer+BW composition meant that changes had to be made to other classes, so now it's WL+BW instead.

Talking specifically about Small-Scale, Choppa had 88% crit damage with Flanking in addition to buffing its parties AA speed by 35% (only 15% less than Push For More for Slayer which requires you to be fully enraged) in addition to the strongest ability in the game, We'z Fightin' Betta.

Slayers had the option of playing push for more+flanking which gave them 63% crit damage and the ability to deal DPS while not having to channel. This was beneficial because rune of absorption can't do as much damage as furious choppin' nor can their positional ability, Spine Crusher, hit as hard even with a full crit stack. This meant Slayer had to be played differently than choppa and gave each class what's called an identity.

In RVR I won't dispute that Rampage bypassing guard mitigation+Morales was an over tuning of the class, but it's crazy to me that destro was equivalent even still and won most of its fights in an open area whereas Order had an advantage in funnels. Of course, I'm not going to beat a dead horse by explaining the positives and negatives to this as it's redundant and a topic that's already beaten into the ground.

My point is that reducing single target damage and adding AOE to both classes for Small-Scale AND RVR isn't a fix to each class having too much aoe in their ST builds, and something else should have been considered. A rollback of these changes is likely due, but I doubt that will happen.

[vanbuinen77]

These are good changes.

Both classes were way to strong,(slayer by far) for years.

Get used to it.

[Lion1986]

if you cry about slayer nerfs, then look the past 5 yars of patches for magus/engi. always nerfs and nothing more.
Welcome to the club sir =)

[Breakfings]

if you cry about slayer nerfs, then look the past 5 yars of patches for magus/engi. always nerfs and nothing more.
Welcome to the club sir =)

I don't play Magus/Engi so I can't comment on those classes. That's better saved for another forum post. The entire point of my post here was to provide feedback on balance approaches, not whinge or cry about a class being nerfed. Unfortunately, I had to overelaborate in my responses why these changes are bad etc. Multiple classes have been nerfed instead of reworked, seemingly for dumb reasons, but each of those classes deserves their own forum post individually discussed by people that understand the ins and outs of them.

[ravezaar]

Red is correct and I agree with his OG post

As I have stated here MANY times before and its kinda scary to see how many just dont understand Slayer mechanics or other mechanics and skills either, its like ppl DONT READ a simple thing as a tooltip and just post for the sake of argueing.

[Lion1986]

don't get me wrong, I really hope for 2handed slayer to become competitive. Definetly class got a hard hit many times by the nerfbat. The only option we got so far is wait for the dps "rework"

[Fey]

How long has ID been cleanse-able? How long was it not?

I have a destro healers perspective that I would like to write, but I'm interested in this question first and foremost.