Return of Reckoning

Sulorie wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 1:58 pm Is the pug group able to assist or do they play like most pugs in SC?

Exactly. Premades are able to assist and punt tanks, while pug healers often don't crossheal the other group, pug tanks don't guardswitch no matter where their guard target is or who is taking damage, pug dps attacking 2 different guarded mdps instead of assisting on one or at least attacking an unguarded target, etc.

If they play like the usual pug, the BG would punt one slayer to the moon and dps sham and sorc assist to ensure he isn't coming back.

You guys talk like pug player is not able to assist, press any kind of buttons and acts like NPC.
I define pug as a "pick up group", specifically in that category i count those who is not on purposly teamed up with another 5 players who know each other/played together before with clearly defined role/spec/build within a group. So pugs include ragtag 6men from /a, random guild groups and /5 groups by such defination.
By premade i define only specifically gathered group optimized to the fullest with constant players playing together with already build coordination per players.
From what you wrote i assume you both talk about absolutele scrubs who nor cant find all its proper buttons, nor put them on a bar. Totally different story. Pugs=/=scrubs.
So like i said, what most people encounter at weekend warfront is hardly can be considered as a premade by those definitions.
In regards to theorycrafting from a picture i draw to give a more clear example you guys try to model - assuming nor tank nor slayer nor 2 heals are NPC bots nothing will die midair. There is a reason why people run 1-3-2 comps that synergies for such things.

@Bosli
> Also, you speak like premades play weird group setups most of the time? No, they don't. They organize their premade to win, and go for a group setup which allows them to win. If you seriously think a good setup is everything you need to win against most premades, then you should play more weekend scenarios solo, or not in a premade that loses against pugs? I don't know how to help you mate.

Premades play to have fun together with people they know for years, usually seeking some challenge or compete for bragging rights (like 6v24), sometimes (rarely) gearing someone on a toon that is needed for their composition or any other aim. And here is a harsh truth - none of them gathers up specifically with fully optimized composition and core team to ruin pugs experience in warfront.
So my consecutive answers for your questions/claims are:
you speak like premades play weird group setups most of the time? No, they don't.
1. Greatly depends for what. Never for any competetive action, "most" - no of course, happens often for "daily" chill activity that SCs are - absolutely yes. Its np to go thru killboard and figure a pattern that even very famous premades are often not fully optimized for e.g. weekend warfront.
As we are most likely define pug/premade very differently (or on absolutely different levels of understanding what is actually happening) so here is an example for you: https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 133daefd2e
Nor Kar (one of the absolute best groups currently active), nor Grav running optimized comps. You are free to go thru killboard and see a patterns yourself assuming you actually understand what proper composition really is.
They organize their premade to win, and go for a group setup which allows them to win
2. The only condition then they do organize to win is then challenge and action is absolutely ensured. So its 6v6 or 24v24 that are organised beforehand. For warfront, orvr roaming farm or whatever they also tend to bring whatever (to an extent of course, none would run a comp i mentioned as its exaggerated on purpose) - whatever that is somewhat working (e.g. not lacking ihd) and whatever that people are in a mood of playing for an evening.
If you seriously think a good setup is everything you need to win against most premades, then you should play more weekend scenarios solo, or not in a premade that loses against pugs?
3. Dont put words into my mouth but instead better learn to read as ive said that composition is the most important thing to balance the matches (assuming we talk about SC and then it should be balanced for pugs as well), i didnt said its everything that is needed to win.
In regards to me specifically i do play weekend warfront both with my friends in EU prime as 2-6men with very close to 100% winrate until we reach our farming goals (and never beyond it, cause matches are indeed mostly onesided) or as solo on undergeared alts of all archetypes both sides in off hours with ~70+% winrate. Thankfully, due to Kar&Bambi's rallying up community i do attend all current 6v6 events and i somewhat participated in organization of all big 6v6 tournaments starting from 2019 with different roles, from very minor to pretty important ones.
Nowhere you will find my posts whinning and (or) "pointing out" any "problems" about SCs, MM etc. I understand how this game works, what is needed to win, i understand why i lose, i understand where and how i made mistake etc. I embrace it and consider those as fair conditions.
Most likely its you, who should look better and analyze more.
I don't know how to help you mate
4. I didnt ask for help mate. I just lurk into forums and sometimes getting triggered by some delusional stuff out here and try to at least leave a trails of common sense so maybe someone would actually stop whinning and rethink the approach to this game so we will have more dedicated people and more topics with "Guys help me analyze what i did wrong and how i lost this/that" instead of "I got rekt so devs please fix".
However tho i dont think your idea will help much (if at all), but it definitely not gonna do any bad and i think its worth giving a try. Sync for q may possible deliver better experience and create more even matches, but those still wont be truly balanced. Downside is that they can literally just stop to pop at all if done wrong. I do remember experiments with q from before (so should you according to your profile) and that was a disaster.

nocturnalguest wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:21 pm [...]
You guys talk like pug player is not able to assist, press any kind of buttons and acts like NPC.
[...]
Premades play to have fun together with people they know for years, usually seeking some challenge or compete for bragging rights (like 6v24), sometimes (rarely) gearing someone on a toon that is needed for their composition or any other aim. And here is a harsh truth - none of them gathers up specifically with fully optimized composition and core team to ruin pugs experience in warfront.
[...]
The only condition then they do organize to win is then challenge and action is absolutely ensured. So its 6v6 or 24v24 that are organised beforehand. For warfront, orvr roaming farm or whatever they also tend to bring whatever (to an extent of course, none would run a comp i mentioned as its exaggerated on purpose) - whatever that is somewhat working (e.g. not lacking ihd) and whatever that people are in a mood of playing for an evening.
[...]

If there is smaller-scale "action" going, like high weekend scenario pops or city sieges, many good players exclusively group up with good players, be it from /g or /a or /discord or /friendlist or /5, and not take random players into their group. This worsens the overall quality level of the solo players during that time even more.

There are A MASSIVE LOT of dps that either don't know how to assist, or feel too superior to assist on "a random player" so they do their own thing unless they see a chance to steal a killing blow nearby. That is a hard fact you cannot deny if you are playing pug scenarios ever. There are also A LOT of healers that do not know a proper priority of neither skills nor targets, nor how to position. It is what it is, but a big part of the players in pretty much any MMO play so casual, that yes, they do seem like NPCs to highly experienced players. Just look at proper WLs literally twoshotting a low geared healer that doesn't detaunt when he should see him beeline towards him, as a small example. Or not checking debuffs to see the timestamp incoming, bad for healers, tanks, and the one getting timestamped. It happens quite a lot that a skilled player on a geared out toon can absolutely dominate discordant scenarios on his own, not because the enemy comp is bad, but because they have too many players simply not used to fight against experienced players, or not gaining any insight from them. Being in a premade means they already fill half their team (on 12v12 scs) with good players, weighing the odds heavily in their favor if the rest 18 players in that match are randomly chosen by the matchmaker.


If all of those premades like a challenge, they should be happy if they get to play against other premades more often and less against full pugs.

So, to be back fullcircle, regular scenarios should have a delay on pops to see if they can matchup premades against each other, at least on weekend events.

Bosli wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 5:50 pm If there is smaller-scale "action" going, like high weekend scenario pops or city sieges, many good players exclusively group up with good players, be it from /g or /a or /discord or /friendlist or /5, and not take random players into their group. This worsens the overall quality level of the solo players during that time even more.

There are A MASSIVE LOT of dps that either don't know how to assist, or feel too superior to assist on "a random player" so they do their own thing unless they see a chance to steal a killing blow nearby. That is a hard fact you cannot deny if you are playing pug scenarios ever. There are also A LOT of healers that do not know a proper priority of neither skills nor targets, nor how to position. It is what it is, but a big part of the players in pretty much any MMO play so casual, that yes, they do seem like NPCs to highly experienced players. Just look at proper WLs literally twoshotting a low geared healer that doesn't detaunt when he should see him beeline towards him, as a small example. Or not checking debuffs to see the timestamp incoming, bad for healers, tanks, and the one getting timestamped. It happens quite a lot that a skilled player on a geared out toon can absolutely dominate discordant scenarios on his own, not because the enemy comp is bad, but because they have too many players simply not used to fight against experienced players, or not gaining any insight from them. Being in a premade means they already fill half their team (on 12v12 scs) with good players, weighing the odds heavily in their favor if the rest 18 players in that match are randomly chosen by the matchmaker.


If all of those premades like a challenge, they should be happy if they get to play against other premades more often and less against full pugs.

So, to be back fullcircle, regular scenarios should have a delay on pops to see if they can matchup premades against each other, at least on weekend events.

True. But i didnt question what you say on this regard, what im trying to say is that what you propose if done right should in theory make it better, but its not guaranteed assuming its mostly not those scary real "premades" that ruin warfront (cause in fact they are very rarely seen in warfront, and to beat them it indeed requires alot of efforts for your team, one of the most crucial of them is to play really alot as a constant team with predefined roles) but matches by themselves are onesided stomps due to other crucial reasons (ill edit once ill find my post on forum with better explanation and share a link to it). There are stomps for guild groups, solos, scrubs in various conditions. There are stomps in pug vs pug or even full 24 solos without 2-2-2 in discordants.
Also I believe that real premades are least interested in stomps while some rare /g /a ragtag teams of 6 whatever & specific players are mostly interested in farming&dodging for various reasons. But they are beatable unlike real premades under specific conditions and they do lose to pugs.