Return of Reckoning

Fenris78 wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:22 pm

normanis wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:29 am eagle flight 20sec duration same as chosen

Yes please.
I just dont get the Dest advantage here, especially on a class that have all skills on-demand.
Chosen's ability cd is even less than the buff duration (15s for a 20s long buff). That makes no sense at all.
If anything, just swap duration/cd of this skill between chosen and SM.

I must add without crit dmg or any other form of significant dmg increaser on the SM, damaging abilities even in 2H feel very underwhelming ; Ether Dance doing like 500 per hit, while BO three hit combo being about 1k base dmg, 1k5 on crit...

Destro advantage??? Sm literally gets 50% parry and dodge disrupt baseline channel. I would hardly call 15 seconds of 25% parry (on hit-defendable) an advantage over all the **** a sm has.

ashton007 wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 3:56 pm

Fenris78 wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:22 pm

normanis wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:29 am eagle flight 20sec duration same as chosen

Yes please.
I just dont get the Dest advantage here, especially on a class that have all skills on-demand.
Chosen's ability cd is even less than the buff duration (15s for a 20s long buff). That makes no sense at all.
If anything, just swap duration/cd of this skill between chosen and SM.

I must add without crit dmg or any other form of significant dmg increaser on the SM, damaging abilities even in 2H feel very underwhelming ; Ether Dance doing like 500 per hit, while BO three hit combo being about 1k base dmg, 1k5 on crit...

Destro advantage??? Sm literally gets 50% parry and dodge disrupt baseline channel. I would hardly call 15 seconds of 25% parry (on hit-defendable) an advantage over all the **** a sm has.

u mean wall of the darting steel? its need 2h . while snb chosen can have same tactic + ability. and noone whant see 2h sm in wb or u are cursed to be c-hero.

normanis wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:28 pm

ashton007 wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 3:56 pm

Fenris78 wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:22 pm
Yes please.
I just dont get the Dest advantage here, especially on a class that have all skills on-demand.
Chosen's ability cd is even less than the buff duration (15s for a 20s long buff). That makes no sense at all.
If anything, just swap duration/cd of this skill between chosen and SM.

I must add without crit dmg or any other form of significant dmg increaser on the SM, damaging abilities even in 2H feel very underwhelming ; Ether Dance doing like 500 per hit, while BO three hit combo being about 1k base dmg, 1k5 on crit...

Destro advantage??? Sm literally gets 50% parry and dodge disrupt baseline channel. I would hardly call 15 seconds of 25% parry (on hit-defendable) an advantage over all the **** a sm has.

u mean wall of the darting steel? its need 2h . while snb chosen can have same tactic + ability. and noone whant see 2h sm in wb or u are cursed to be c-hero.

This guy is talking about thc and ED so I can only assume 2h. Maybe for snb tho I can see the need.

zulnam wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:43 pm

Aethilmar wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:04 am Perfect Defenses - 5% stacking defense bonuses (10% max) on stance change (excluding sudden shift) that lasts for 3s. Basically if you are constantly moving through your stances and attacking, you get the bonus. You stop, you get nothing. Embraces the mechanic and the identity of SM as an "offensive" or active tank.

Calming Winds - As above change tactic to embrace the mechanic. 10% stacking disrupt bonus (20% max) on stance change (excluding sudden shift) that lasts for 3s. Same reasoning as above.

I like this idea a lot. Would be indeed nice to see SM/BO get this change and have their stat alterers (crit/parry/disrupt) be buffs that award aggressive gameplay.

Might have to be tweaked a bit. I don't mind it, but the question does raise: do you get the constant buff when you use any ability, or when you successfully advance your stance? What happens if I keep using abilities that stick me to Improved Balance (EB spam, for example). Or if i you mess up your comp and go from Perfect to Normal without actually triggering a perfect balance ability (to trigger happy with the EB). Does it count?

Yeah. I was thinking two ways to go with this:

1) Any non-sudden shift change triggers it (and maybe keep the current maximums of 10% and 20%)
2) Any non-sudden shift forward plan (normal -> improved -> perfect -> normal) changes it in which case maybe the maximums get bumped to 15% and 30% with the reasoning that you have to follow a very prescribed plan to reach maximum benefit i.e. follow the mechanic. You can skip forward to get the benefit but going from improved -> normal e.g. using WoH to PoH doesn't give stacking bonus.

Aethilmar wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:04 am There are a few changes I think SM could use to flesh out its existing specs, embrace the mechanic and make it more than a WW Bot.

Phoenix Wing - Change to 10s cooldown, move to perfect stance, add 10% heal debuff for 10s. Two hander spec brings nothing particularly interesting to the table, at least having some kind of debuff on this ability would provide a reason. Heal debuff off the table, feel free to substitute something else of value. It just needs something. The damage sure isn't worth it.

Perfect Defenses - 5% stacking defense bonuses (10% max) on stance change (excluding sudden shift) that lasts for 3s. Basically if you are constantly moving through your stances and attacking, you get the bonus. You stop, you get nothing. Embraces the mechanic and the identity of SM as an "offensive" or active tank.

Calming Winds - As above change tactic to embrace the mechanic. 10% stacking disrupt bonus (20% max) on stance change (excluding sudden shift) that lasts for 3s. Same reasoning as above.

Eagle's Flight - Change to 10s cooldown and maintain 25% parry. May be just style preference but I find it annoying having to choose to maintain this all the time or do something else. Rather have it be long enough I can work through a couple of different rotations whether it hits or not.

Gusting Winds - Change name to "Cyclonic Vortex" and change from punt to pull. Maintain 10s cooldown. I'd miss bridge punting but that is about all I'd miss with this change.

Lastly, if "HealMaster" is supposed to be a thing then "Blessing of Heaven" and "Bolstering Enchantments" need to heal for at least double current strength on others. SwordMaster self-healing should be same or zero if that balances out the books.

I think if you don't get more out of SM than WW, you are playing it wrong..

PW: for a tank this does give decent damage, the main thing is the spammable AP cost and higher dmg.. WoH -> SS -> PW -> EB -> PW -> SS -> PW

PD: sure, will play more into the stance/theme, but will end up being about 5% more tanky in general combat.. while making your WoDS/HtL weaker.. not sure what is really going to do since surviving should not be an issue as it is.
If you really want the change.. make it 1% stacking 20 times for 3-5 sec.

CW: as above.. just 2% increments

EF: you want to make CW/PD more thematic, but not here? Also.. the 25% buff can be remove and has a 10 sec cd.. I rarely need the parry buff 100% of the time.. the main point of the 4 sec effect time is to force you to make a choice.. this is what makes SM fun vs Kotbs.

GW: NO THANKS, GW is very strong as is. If you want Get to the SM.. add to Vauls Temp or something.

Heal SM: Not gonna say no to a massive buff to an already decent spec. You currently passively get to heal 30-60% of a moderate healer, while losing little tankiness/utility.. yes it's fluff.. 2x'ing the hps just makes you full fluff healer + tank.. you'd need to 4-5x before it stops becoming fluff..please devs urgent!!

lifeson wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:24 pm 2H Khaine seems fine to me, Hoeth is fine, its just Vaul needs some work.
1. Crushing Advance - remove the 5ft range and make it work in a cone with no target needed.
2. Vaul's Tempering - change the immunity to 5s (same for We'z bigger on the BO)

Oh and please fix the damn stance bug that appeared a few months ago for BO/SM where it doesn't shift properly in big fights or when being chain cced.

+1 fix bug

I believe VT used to be 5sec which was too strong, maybe try 4sec lol..
or.. reduce WW cd to 10 sec and move the CD reducer to VT then increase VT effect area to 100ft.
Again.. QoL, I don't have an issue getting WW, if needed, it's the first ability that goes off when combat starts.. would be nice to have on demand and not get parried/give immunity, but not gonna change anything.

I think SMs are pretty well rounded in all trees..
I'd liked to see Crushing Advance and Redirect Force made available to 2H.. but again QoL..
and Sudden Shift reduced by WW.. like in the golden days

Anyway.. SMs are great.. just fix SH it went from being alright solo roaming SM to completely pointless

Sever1n wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:33 am Dunno sm look good atm. Calming wind+3stance+darting steel or hold=80+disrupt. Bolstering+fantom blade800+hp in 10sec. Phoenix wing is a 2 strike combo of stat steaking on mass if u dps am. Why do u wish to change that works well?
Only thing that i dont like is a distance of mass punt, its often not eniugh to knock people of cliffs coz its too short. But snb sm have redirect force that works good, so gusting wind is an only option to dps sm and sometimes its just not enough distance. Btw 10% heal debuff is nothing.

My primary motivation is that SM a vanilla "one trick pony" for warband play (WW) and I think it is really close to having multiple tricks with some tweaks. Giving 2-hander some kind of WB viable play would be an example of expanding the tricks. The 10% heal debuff was an opening example and I would rather have people say it is too little than too much. The debuff (or buff if it went that way) it gives is negotiable but it could use something. Same thing with pull instead of punt. It takes what is generally considered a liability and potentially turns it into something people for which people might want SM.

The other motivation is fixing those tactics which work in direct opposition to the mechanics of the SM. Anything that has you "hold" your plan is not what the SM (and BO for that matter) are supposed to be about. They are meant to be moving through the plans and attacking. The mechanic is supposed to have a tradeoff where if you do it well you get more benefit from it. As it stands, it nothing but an encumbrance with no real upside. The addition of sudden shift many years ago was simply an admission that the mechanic doesn't actually do anything but get in your way.

Anyway, YMMV. Not saying your observations are wrong but I definitely have a different view of things after playing most of the other tanks in the game now.

I would honestly probably roll an SM because they seem interesting thematically if the class wasn't so inconsistent and such a chore to play.

+1 for any QoL and interesting changes to the class. It needs it.

I would love seeing anything that makes the stance mechanic and the extra small windows of opportunity to execute skills at the right moment a bit easier for SM. I love the look and theme as well.

I greatly like the following:

-Making Eagle's Flight buff a 20 second duration.
As usual, destro bias means that Chosen doesn't have to drop their defensive buff in order to slow someone, or hit harder and nerf their morale, or do anything else they've got.

-Switching Gusting Wind from an AOE knockback to an AOE pull-in
Get to the choppa has always been absolutely busted in every way, and the only even remote mirror that Order has is engineer pull-in. Except wait, that's a ranged class that melts when they get close enough to the front line to use it. So yes. Give a pull in to a frontliner.

-Streamlining Whispering Winds
Get rid of its target requirement and make it minor aoe damage, get rid of the silence OR get rid of the immunity that the silence gives, and preferably get rid of its stance requirement and make it an off-stance ability. It's so absolutely clunky to use, and your group gets screwed if its defended against. Destro has -none- of these issues.

Aethilmar wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:04 am Phoenix Wing - Change to 10s cooldown, move to perfect stance, add 10% heal debuff for 10s. Two hander spec brings nothing particularly interesting to the table, at least having some kind of debuff on this ability would provide a reason. Heal debuff off the table, feel free to substitute something else of value. It just needs something. The damage sure isn't worth it.

Interesting, or perhaps a lesser crit debuff, add a cooldown ofc.

Aethilmar wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:04 am Perfect Defenses - 5% stacking defense bonuses (10% max) on stance change (excluding sudden shift) that lasts for 3s. Basically if you are constantly moving through your stances and attacking, you get the bonus. You stop, you get nothing. Embraces the mechanic and the identity of SM as an "offensive" or active tank.

Calming Winds - As above change tactic to embrace the mechanic. 10% stacking disrupt bonus (20% max) on stance change (excluding sudden shift) that lasts for 3s. Same reasoning as above.

Decent suggestion.

Aethilmar wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:04 am Eagle's Flight - Change to 10s cooldown and maintain 25% parry. May be just style preference but I find it annoying having to choose to maintain this all the time or do something else. Rather have it be long enough I can work through a couple of different rotations whether it hits or not.

Eagle's flight could certainly use a quality of life update, it's 5 sec uptime is a bit cruel considering the cluncky stance dance mechanics of the class.