Shadow Warrior was fine.

[saupreusse]

Have you even played the class yet? You still have 100ft range on your skirm abilities except shadow sting. It only goes down to 65ft if you slot the aoe tactic.

No. All skirmish skills are still 65ft range, saving BHA and SFA that have been buffed to 100ft base range.

Issue is now we lose the ability to use skirmish on decent range (was 98ft with Powerful Draw tactic before, up to 108ft for some skills that allowed Scout stance), for some damage that is barely visible anyway.
Having to stack BHA three times on tanks (since that's mostly only targets available at this range) is a chore, despite slotting all strikethrough tactics, and even after that spamming SFA for aoe damage is kind of dumb ; the skirmish gameplay is reduced to 2 spammable skills now...

Lileath arrow to 5s cd is the worst decision ever, since aoe has already been nerfed to the ground, and range restriction of split arrow is far worse than before where SFA had 30% damage reduction.

Now we are force to use scout skills (wich are not really better than before), and thanks to the switch of ranged KD to scout tree, it's now impossible to properly make a skirmish/assault build without sacrifiying one of the rare tools that make SW useful.

Conclusion : scout is barely better (it could use ranged kd, but it would have been fine on skirmish 5pt tree), skirmish become unplayable without sacrifying your efficiency at standard (100ft) range, and assault stay in the grey area were SW can still only be effective in 6v6 or 1v1 fights (still useless in oRvR/City fights).

There are still many changes to do before SW become a balanced and effective ranged class.

My bad.

[jvlosky]

It was just an excuse to buff Squig Herder.

It isn't balanced unless Destro has a clear advantage. DUHHHH

It is the same reason why they gave SW a morale drain, but even at peak efficiency synchronizing with WINDS from a SM it is inferior to Marauder Morale drain by themselves. Just an excuse 'omg we have SW morale drain are you not happy?" no we aren't it is a weak ass skill that requires a prerequisite buff and global cooldown and only allows for Morale Drain in a specific window and even when syncrhonized with a SM it only drains 600 morale every 30 seconds (200 morale without a **** SM synchronizing with you) where in that same 30 second window Marauder gets 675 morale drained and they dont need all this prerequisite bullshit gimmick of 'when you are in vengeance' crap.

SW is clunky, AP drained, and in a worse spot than it was before.


All you had to do was remove all the gimmicky bullshit about vengeance, and give them a reliable morale drain so they brought something to the wb. Instead they got a weak ass morale drain which seemed like a really good excuse to mess with everything else.



For anyone who doesn't believe SW morale drain is crap here is the writeup:

I just would like to point out it is a bit wack that Barrage only drains 100 morale and while in vengeance.

Within a 30 second window a marauder can drain 675 morale (225 morale every 10 seconds) with a lot more ease than a SW at full efficiency.

By default barrage drains only 100 morale while in vengeance that is a 10 second buff every 30 seconds. So in a 30 second window SW can only drain 200 morale where Marauder gets to drain 675 in that same window with less use of global cooldowns, less use of AP and ease of use as they just have to hit one button and forget about it.

The debate can be said that 'OMG a SW with a SM using Whispering Winds lets you Spam Barrage during Vengeance' Well even with an SM and no CD on Barrage you can only still get 6 Barrage spams within that same 30 second window (6 global cooldowns at 1.5 seconds each = 9 seconds) amount to only 600 morale drained.... for a **** ton more work... .and more synchronization..... for less output


This seems to be the general trend with Order vs Destro.


Also you have to put yourself in some dangerous territory to spam Barrage, you dont want to be frontline as a Skirmisher, where as Mara wants to be in your face cause... you know that is where they need to be to do all their dmg.


They both have a 40ft range btw.

[Valarion]

For anyone who doesn't believe SW morale drain is crap here is the writeup:

I just would like to point out it is a bit wack that Barrage only drains 100 morale and while in vengeance.

Within a 30 second window a marauder can drain 675 morale (225 morale every 10 seconds) with a lot more ease than a SW at full efficiency.

By default barrage drains only 100 morale while in vengeance that is a 10 second buff every 30 seconds. So in a 30 second window SW can only drain 200 morale where Marauder gets to drain 675 in that same window with less use of global cooldowns, less use of AP and ease of use as they just have to hit one button and forget about it.

The debate can be said that 'OMG a SW with a SM using Whispering Winds lets you Spam Barrage during Vengeance' Well even with an SM and no CD on Barrage you can only still get 6 Barrage spams within that same 30 second window (6 global cooldowns at 1.5 seconds each = 9 seconds) amount to only 600 morale drained.... for a **** ton more work... .and more synchronization..... for less output

What I find troubling is I saw no reason to add morale drain to SW in the first place. Especially not another ranged one at that.

The morale drains are roughly even between the factions. Destro does have a slight edge with marauder's spammable aoe ability. However, the explanation on live was that this was a mid to short range counter to the superior ranged morale drains in the form of morales (BW - Burning Head and Knight's Solar Flare) and the superior ranged KDs that order has that they can use to dominate fort/city pushes.

Destro does have an advantage in morales pumps, even after Torq took a sledge hammer to and decided to remove the Dok pump which Im still pissed off about 4 years later. So I would have probably given the SW a pump instead.

https://wiki.returnofreckoning.com/inde ... ale_Drains

[Manatikik]

For anyone who doesn't believe SW morale drain is crap here is the writeup:

I just would like to point out it is a bit wack that Barrage only drains 100 morale and while in vengeance.

Within a 30 second window a marauder can drain 675 morale (225 morale every 10 seconds) with a lot more ease than a SW at full efficiency.

By default barrage drains only 100 morale while in vengeance that is a 10 second buff every 30 seconds. So in a 30 second window SW can only drain 200 morale where Marauder gets to drain 675 in that same window with less use of global cooldowns, less use of AP and ease of use as they just have to hit one button and forget about it.

The debate can be said that 'OMG a SW with a SM using Whispering Winds lets you Spam Barrage during Vengeance' Well even with an SM and no CD on Barrage you can only still get 6 Barrage spams within that same 30 second window (6 global cooldowns at 1.5 seconds each = 9 seconds) amount to only 600 morale drained.... for a **** ton more work... .and more synchronization..... for less output

What I find troubling is I saw no reason to add morale drain to SW in the first place. Especially not another ranged one at that.

The morale drains are roughly even between the factions. Destro does have a slight edge with marauder's spammable aoe ability. However, the explanation on live was that this was a mid to short range counter to the superior ranged morale drains in the form of morales (BW - Burning Head and Knight's Solar Flare) and the superior ranged KDs that order has.

Destro does have an advantage in morales pumps, even after Torq completely nerfed the living hell out of the Dok pump which Im still pissed off about 4 years later. So I would have probably given the SW a pump instead.

https://wiki.returnofreckoning.com/inde ... ale_Drains

The main issue with that argument is that we are 6 years removed from Live and the balance philosophy and situation is completely different. On Live Destro had a far superior Morale game and Order had much better crit stacking. Here they have reduced morale control for destro a bit and all but leveled out the crit stacking. This is a different game from Live and we can’t try to justify changes based on their ideas from 2008.

[Valarion]

For anyone who doesn't believe SW morale drain is crap here is the writeup:

I just would like to point out it is a bit wack that Barrage only drains 100 morale and while in vengeance.

Within a 30 second window a marauder can drain 675 morale (225 morale every 10 seconds) with a lot more ease than a SW at full efficiency.

By default barrage drains only 100 morale while in vengeance that is a 10 second buff every 30 seconds. So in a 30 second window SW can only drain 200 morale where Marauder gets to drain 675 in that same window with less use of global cooldowns, less use of AP and ease of use as they just have to hit one button and forget about it.

The debate can be said that 'OMG a SW with a SM using Whispering Winds lets you Spam Barrage during Vengeance' Well even with an SM and no CD on Barrage you can only still get 6 Barrage spams within that same 30 second window (6 global cooldowns at 1.5 seconds each = 9 seconds) amount to only 600 morale drained.... for a **** ton more work... .and more synchronization..... for less output

What I find troubling is I saw no reason to add morale drain to SW in the first place. Especially not another ranged one at that.

The morale drains are roughly even between the factions. Destro does have a slight edge with marauder's spammable aoe ability. However, the explanation on live was that this was a mid to short range counter to the superior ranged morale drains in the form of morales (BW - Burning Head and Knight's Solar Flare) and the superior ranged KDs that order has.

Destro does have an advantage in morales pumps, even after Torq completely nerfed the living hell out of the Dok pump which Im still pissed off about 4 years later. So I would have probably given the SW a pump instead.

https://wiki.returnofreckoning.com/inde ... ale_Drains

The main issue with that argument is that we are 6 years removed from Live and the balance philosophy and situation is completely different. On Live Destro had a far superior Morale game and Order had much better crit stacking. Here they have reduced morale control for destro a bit and all but leveled out the crit stacking. This is a different game from Live and we can’t try to justify changes based on their ideas from 2008.

Just look at the current state of the pumps and drains which have changed somewhat, but not much since live. Its not only fairly even now, there is little to no justification in granting Order a ranged drain until other elements like the ranged KD disparity are equalized.

https://wiki.returnofreckoning.com/inde ... ale_Drains

[jvlosky]

What I find troubling is I saw no reason to add morale drain to SW in the first place. Especially not another ranged one at that.

The morale drains are roughly even between the factions. Destro does have a slight edge with marauder's spammable aoe ability. However, the explanation on live was that this was a mid to short range counter to the superior ranged morale drains in the form of morales (BW - Burning Head and Knight's Solar Flare) and the superior ranged KDs that order has.

Destro does have an advantage in morales pumps, even after Torq completely nerfed the living hell out of the Dok pump which Im still pissed off about 4 years later. So I would have probably given the SW a pump instead.

https://wiki.returnofreckoning.com/inde ... ale_Drains

The main issue with that argument is that we are 6 years removed from Live and the balance philosophy and situation is completely different. On Live Destro had a far superior Morale game and Order had much better crit stacking. Here they have reduced morale control for destro a bit and all but leveled out the crit stacking. This is a different game from Live and we can’t try to justify changes based on their ideas from 2008.

Just look at the current state of the pumps and drains which have changed somewhat, but not much since live. Its not only fairly even now, there is little to no justification in granting Order a ranged drain:

https://wiki.returnofreckoning.com/inde ... ale_Drains

Mara and SW morale drain have the same 40ft range.......

[CountTalabecland]

It was a garbage class that has been pushed to only borderline garbage with ASW changes. These changes arent enough to change that.

Please put this elf back on the shelf and hop on a Tank, MDPS, or healer and actually be useful for Order.

[Valarion]

The main issue with that argument is that we are 6 years removed from Live and the balance philosophy and situation is completely different. On Live Destro had a far superior Morale game and Order had much better crit stacking. Here they have reduced morale control for destro a bit and all but leveled out the crit stacking. This is a different game from Live and we can’t try to justify changes based on their ideas from 2008.

Just look at the current state of the pumps and drains which have changed somewhat, but not much since live. Its not only fairly even now, there is little to no justification in granting Order a ranged drain:

https://wiki.returnofreckoning.com/inde ... ale_Drains

Mara and SW morale drain have the same 40ft range.......

I dont think you are getting my point so Ill make it much clearer:

Granting SW a new morale drain at ANY RANGE breaks the inter faction morale pump/drain balanced that was established on live and carefully tuned here by Torq to the point of parity. If anything needs to be adjusted, its either granting the SW (or another order class) a morale pump or giving Destro a long ranged KD. That and perhaps toning down the BW and Knight morale drains that are used to push keeps or granting Destro the equiv.

[Kobra]

I dont think you are getting my point so Ill make it much clearer:

Granting SW a new morale drain at ANY RANGE breaks the inter faction morale pump/drain balanced that was established on live and carefully tuned here by Torq to the point of parity. If anything needs to be adjusted, its either granting the SW (or another order class) a morale pump or giving Destro a long ranged KD. That and perhaps toning down the BW and Knight morale drains that are used to push keeps or granting Destro the equiv.

Order has too much morale drain already. Dest focuses on 'stalling' morale, Order can simply remove it. It's pretty well known by players the KOTBS morale wipe is too powerful. It's pretty well known BW ranged morale drain is too powerful. Add to that 3 of the Dest morale 'stallers' are tactics people won't generally slot, and all but one of the order ones are abilities or morales which they almost always use.

I think most of us know during lord room pushes, a KOTBS always rushes in and pulls down Morale to zero, yet Dest can't accomplish the same thing, under any condition.

[jvlosky]

I dont think you are getting my point so Ill make it much clearer:

Granting SW a new morale drain at ANY RANGE breaks the inter faction morale pump/drain balanced that was established on live and carefully tuned here by Torq to the point of parity. If anything needs to be adjusted, its either granting the SW (or another order class) a morale pump or giving Destro a long ranged KD. That and perhaps toning down the BW and Knight morale drains that are used to push keeps or granting Destro the equiv.

Order has too much morale drain already. Dest focuses on 'stalling' morale, Order can simply remove it. It's pretty well known by players the KOTBS morale wipe is too powerful. It's pretty well known BW ranged morale drain is too powerful. Add to that 3 of the Dest morale 'stallers' are tactics people won't generally slot, and all but one of the order ones are abilities or morales which they almost always use.

I think most of us know during lord room pushes, a KOTBS always rushes in and pulls down Morale to zero, yet Dest can't accomplish the same thing, under any condition.

I'm sorry but nobody even gets to use M4 in any city situation. Solar flare looks amazing on paper but few knights actually run and if they do barely get to m4 with all the mara morale drain going on. With the recent rework to morales it benefits to stagger them and do dmg. Solar flare is bad dmg for an m4 and by the time you got m4 on order Destro has already used their m4 and is on their m2.

The only use solar flare gets is in oRVR sometimes and in Forts.

Having a morale that drains morale is useless when you can't even get to that morale in the first place because one side has a morale drain that isn't a morale ability, ya dig?