Return of Reckoning

Aurandilaz wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 12:09 am 3500 armor
-1500 debuff
-600 armor bypass from ability
left with 1400, which is maybe 35% ?
add armor pen, 20-40% depending on spec+procs, subtract from remaining physical mitigation percentage, you have your 5-10% remaining mitigation as the dmg taken implies.

Is armor pen multiplicative or an additive reduction? I didn't think it reduced your Armor by a flat amount (except for Invader proc). Example, say I have 1000 armor, and you have 40% armor pen, you don't reduce my mit to 0 but my armor to 600. Its why high arm pen is less effective versus squishy classes.

Anyway, will figure it out. There may be something with being 'disabled' going or with Sundering Chop or something else broke.

Math does not check out, something is off here.

That 95 mitigation looks like Toughness without any armor

Either Pet debuff stacks with WL debuff, or something else.
Maybe Sundering Chop bonus is calculated after percentile armor pen? But even If they had like 50% of normal penetration its not enough for these numbers

Gear procs for armor debuff should be of the same type as Forced Opportunity and shouldn't stack

Yep, something is up. What people may be saying is overturned may be a bug. I was dueling earlier and trying to figure it out. There is something specifically with disable and some odd stacking.

My toughness on mSH only negates -26 damage. Even with a debuff, I can’t figure out where my mit would be that low

If you're speaking about msh (that overpowered beast killing anything (c)order), then you're the class suffering most from any armor debuffs. At least as far as I'm know, it works approximately the following way:
(your armor - armor debuff)*armor x2multiplier from TA or pet
It means, if you have 1750armor from your equip, and TA tactics, you have 3500armor
WL debuffs you for 1600 armor, (1750-1600)*2=300armor left on you
Note: if something changed past months, I may not be aware. But when mSHs were inroduced, it worked that way, as far as I'm remember.
Similar way it worked for Blord weapons
you can always check. (but please use .getstats command, not standard char window)

Oh that's interesting, TA armour buff is actually pretty **** then.

Anyone know how Sneaky Strike and armour pot plays into the calculation?

Did it only happen during the KD or was it that way the whole fight?

Armour pen is multiplicative after armour debuff, so 3519 armour - 1520 (debuff) = 2139. With 30% pen that then goes to 2139 * 0.7 = 1497.3. I don't know if Sundering Chop is before or after pen (it says ignore armour and ignore is usually after pen) but either way that shouldn't leave you with zero armour.

Imagine if all these WL burst issues when knocked down were due to bugs

Hurry up to get all your WL frustrations out before the thread get locked....

spiritbull wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 6:09 am If you're speaking about msh (that overpowered beast killing anything (c)order), then you're the class suffering most from any armor debuffs. At least as far as I'm know, it works approximately the following way:
(your armor - armor debuff)*armor x2multiplier from TA or pet
It means, if you have 1750armor from your equip, and TA tactics, you have 3500armor
WL debuffs you for 1600 armor, (1750-1600)*2=300armor left on you
Note: if something changed past months, I may not be aware. But when mSHs were inroduced, it worked that way, as far as I'm remember.
Similar way it worked for Blord weapons
you can always check. (but please use .getstats command, not standard char window)

The answer is here, armour debuffs and ignore armour attacks work on your base armour pool, not your doubled armour from TA. As Spiritbull says if you have 3500 armour with TA that means your real armour value for debuff/ignore calculations is about 1750.

Almost all of that will have been removed by Force Opportunity, likely leaving you with somewhere between 150 and 300 base armour, or between 300 and 600 with TA.

The Sundering Chop hit you mentioned will then ignore half of your remaining base armour, so your base armour will be between 75 and 150. Then you need to add armour penetration from the WLs WS and items, and you're pretty much down to zero. And zero doubled by your TA tactic is still zero.

95 mitigation on a 1381 hit (about 7%) sounds about right for a toughness only mitigation (even being generous and saying you might have about 30 base armour left after FO, SC, Weapon skill and items, 60 odd armour with your TA tactic will mitigate nothing).

Easy way to test would be to remove TA tactic and repeat your tests. mSH can get high levels of armour and feel near invincible, but armour debuffs and ignore armour attacks are basically twice as effective against you. A maxed Force Opportunity removes 3200 armour from you.

AxelF wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 9:10 am
The answer is here, armour debuffs and ignore armour attacks work on your base armour pool, not your doubled armour from TA. As Spiritbull says if you have 3500 armour with TA that means your real armour value for debuff/ignore calculations is about 1750.

Interesting. Is this unique for this tactic? If not, what is considered "base armour pool"? You woot, for instance, also increase armor based on your items. Will an armor debuff while you woot is up first reduce a "base pool" on which you woot is based on, which in turn reduce the you woot buff?