Return of Reckoning

Would argue that Choppa is in a worse place than slayer looking at leader board (top 100 6v6)

2 Choppa
6 slayer

Total in leader board top 400 (or so)
18 slayer
9 Choppa

Does kind of suggest something broken in this format

Acidic wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:58 am Would argue that Choppa is in a worse place than slayer looking at leader board (top 100 6v6)

2 Choppa
6 slayer

Total in leader board top 400 (or so)
18 slayer
9 Choppa

Does kind of suggest something broken in this format

Pretty sure we shouldnt look at leaderboard for comparing anything. Otherwise it'll lead to Order vs Destro class imbalancing.

Isdp wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:03 pm

Acidic wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:58 am Would argue that Choppa is in a worse place than slayer looking at leader board (top 100 6v6)

2 Choppa
6 slayer

Total in leader board top 400 (or so)
18 slayer
9 Choppa

Does kind of suggest something broken in this format

Pretty sure we shouldnt look at leaderboard for comparing anything. Otherwise it'll lead to Order vs Destro class imbalancing.

Seemed to be enough for Dok to take a nerf so appears a valid argument

Diggot wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:26 am

wargrimnir wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:18 pm
Your class isn't that broken.

It's not "that" broken, means it's just broken. (1)

Honestly Grim, can you tell us a good reason to play Choppa instead of Marauder (2), apart from being an Orky fan ?.

How popular do you think it would be if BW's and Sorcs had the same debuff as Choppas and Slayers, losing 50% defense as soon as they reach half of their backlash? (3) Even since WAR was run by EA i've been against the INSANE debuff & penalty for reaching berserk for both classes. (4)

Everyone also constantly mentions that Choppas needs 3 people to function... a Choppa, Guard and pockethealer. Then ask yourself.. which class wouldn't perform better with a pocketguard and healer (5)...

Out of every class, the slayer and Choppas are the one that actually performs worst (6), even with designated support, because they CAN'T utilize their primary skills (7).. the 2handed treesthat requires Wot Rules to function properly.

Give a Whitelion a designated Guard and healer, see how they perform compared to a slayer... make it a 3v3, and i'm willing to bet the WL team wins. (8)

Do i know how to fix the Slayer and choppa issue?, no.. but giving them the same debuff and sorcs and BW's would be a start.(9)

/Sincerely.

I swore to myself not to do this again, but here I go:

1. Means that you misrepresented A LOT the class cause of a single tactic in a mastery tree. The class is 100% ok and clearly overperforming in defenses due to GtdC pulling tanks to be killed non-stop with an undefendeable skill. I would live with it though, as I have similar problems in destro side with Slayers. I would say that the thing is balanced if my life as tank is as miserable in one realm as it is in the other.

2. I can give you three: Burst damage on area, defending a choke point with GtdC, and synergies with his group buffs. Choppa is not as much a debuffer as a group buffer. If you don't use the skills, you are a death weight for your team, so simple.

3. They have it way worse. They damage themselves in 1 out of each 3 skills they use, on average, for quite a hefty amount of damage that can't be avoided. Would you rather take that? Cause your defenses debuff only means something if you're under attack, but BWs/Sorcs get the hit whenever they aren't, or they are, under attack as long as they are using skills. So basically add the backlash/explosion to the enemy damage, effectively contributing to their DPS.

4. And even since release they have been the most widely used mele classes in RvR, proving that you are wrong and the debuff is right.

5. That is a complete logical fallacy.

6. That is a complete lie.

7. That is a complete lie too.

8. Based in what? In your amazing experience infra using one of the best classes of the game to underperform to the point of coming to forums to cry for buffs? You are the one that need to buff yourself if you are failing to use the class properly. The trouble clearly lays in you, not in the class nor in the tactic. In yourself only.

9. Sounds about right... Make also mirror the backlash/explosion and enjoy watching the funnels die by themselves.

You literally have zero idea of what is playing a WL, BW, Sorc, Slayer, or even Choppa for the matter. I highly doubt that you play any of the classes that you mentioned in your post. Hell, I even doubt that you play Choppa!! You lack the minimal understanding of any of the mechanics or the usual targets' weaknesses.

To me, you look like a mindless button spamer, and that's not how a game is played. It would be like playing football sitting next to the enemy goal and asking your team why they don't pass you the ball, telling them that you can score. Lack of basic knowledge mechanics and rules.

Acidic wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:05 pm

Isdp wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:03 pm

Acidic wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:58 am Would argue that Choppa is in a worse place than slayer looking at leader board (top 100 6v6)

2 Choppa
6 slayer

Total in leader board top 400 (or so)
18 slayer
9 Choppa

Does kind of suggest something broken in this format

Pretty sure we shouldnt look at leaderboard for comparing anything. Otherwise it'll lead to Order vs Destro class imbalancing.

Seemed to be enough for Dok to take a nerf so appears a valid argument

It's pretty much the only order mele class viable for group environment that worth a damn at RvR, and you know this. I haven't checked nor I will, but I'm gonna assume that if you check the number of straight forward meles, not specific classes, in both realms in about a couple months, there should be around the same figure. Obviously the vast majority in order will be Slayers, cause they are viable, while destro will have a bit of every mele class, cause they are viable.

Ototo wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:13 pm
3. They have it way worse. They damage themselves in 1 out of each 3 skills they use, on average, for quite a hefty amount of damage that can't be avoided. Would you rather take that? Cause your defenses debuff only means something if you're under attack, but BWs/Sorcs get the hit whenever they aren't, or they are, under attack as long as they are using skills. So basically add the backlash/explosion to the enemy damage, effectively contributing to their DPS.

The backlash damage can easily be made up for with a single HoT, i've played Sorcs and a single HoT kept me up
while i was spamming spells - tried and tested.

Also.. with the amount of physical mitigation from armor / armorpots, the damagebonus from berserk is
a joke compared to the loss of defense.. you lose not only 50% armor, but resists.. 1 BW fireballcrit and you're dead.

Also add to the fact that BW's and Sorcs gets insane +crit% while backlash, and they got tons of debuffers for their spells.

Yeah, OP has a point. The mechanic of the sorc/bw is way more powerful, and the drawback isn't nearly as bad, and this becomes even more absurd when you consider the reduced incoming critical damage renown talent isn't an option on this server, benefitting classes with extra crit dmg multipliers of which BW / Sorcs are undisputed champions.

Imitating the drawback for that class to sl / ch doesn't sound good to me though.

I always thought it would make more sense to cut the avoidances like parry / dodge disrupt instead of armor / resistances in this setting.. but dont tell barracudax i said that

Diggot wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:32 pm

Ototo wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:13 pm
3. They have it way worse. They damage themselves in 1 out of each 3 skills they use, on average, for quite a hefty amount of damage that can't be avoided. Would you rather take that? Cause your defenses debuff only means something if you're under attack, but BWs/Sorcs get the hit whenever they aren't, or they are, under attack as long as they are using skills. So basically add the backlash/explosion to the enemy damage, effectively contributing to their DPS.

The backlash damage can easily be made up for with a single HoT, i've played Sorcs and a single HoT kept me up
while i was spamming spells - tried and tested.

Also.. with the amount of physical mitigation from armor / armorpots, the damagebonus from berserk is
a joke compared to the loss of defense.. you lose not only 50% armor, but resists.. 1 BW fireballcrit and you're dead.

Also add to the fact that BW's and Sorcs gets insane +crit% while backlash, and they got tons of debuffers for their spells.

Meles have the pressure and the CCs:
* Even with the debuff you are still speaking of medium armor versus robe, so except for the resists, BW/Sorc plays as a constantly debuffed Chop/Slay.
* The insane crit means also that they have been dropping at least 4-5 skills on a target, and I bet you that they can't survive 4-5 GCDs versus any mele of the game. Without the lack of hard CCs, and the knockdown in the part of the meles, if you are approached, 9 out 10 times you are knocked down and dead before it ends.
* You are still minimizing the Chop/Slay strengths to make them look like fail classes, and, hell no! They aren't.
* The base damage of BW/Sorc is very low, and only works out due to the crit mechanic. The same cannot be said about Chop/Slay, which base damage is more than ok and just scales to very generous with rage.
* Also you aren't taking into consideration that you have to cast things, and be set back while mele trained.

Honestly, I still think that you have no freaking idea of the classes that you speak of, or that you are deliberately trying to lie in your own favour. If such a failure of a class is, why so many people play it? Cause it's not. It's actually very strong and incredibly powerful, and can completely utter destroy any BW. BWs work to time stamp, but it requires no less than 5 seconds to do so, and I can definitely tell you that, even guarded and healed, if the opposite Choppa has the same, you are not going to outlast him in any way and you are going to die first thanks to the fact that your armor count is robe like. Armor potions making BWs unkillable by Choppas? Are you freaking joking or lieing?

I have little experience playing as a SL, but it seems to me that the common weak point of playing with a two-handed tree is the inability to inflict heavy damage in the first second of battle. If it were my will, I would not touch the Rage dump by Holding Grudges/Pent Up Rage tactic at all, but instead would increase the rate of accumulation.

Ototo wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:26 pm

Diggot wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:32 pm

Ototo wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:13 pm
3. They have it way worse. They damage themselves in 1 out of each 3 skills they use, on average, for quite a hefty amount of damage that can't be avoided. Would you rather take that? Cause your defenses debuff only means something if you're under attack, but BWs/Sorcs get the hit whenever they aren't, or they are, under attack as long as they are using skills. So basically add the backlash/explosion to the enemy damage, effectively contributing to their DPS.

The backlash damage can easily be made up for with a single HoT, i've played Sorcs and a single HoT kept me up
while i was spamming spells - tried and tested.

Also.. with the amount of physical mitigation from armor / armorpots, the damagebonus from berserk is
a joke compared to the loss of defense.. you lose not only 50% armor, but resists.. 1 BW fireballcrit and you're dead.

Also add to the fact that BW's and Sorcs gets insane +crit% while backlash, and they got tons of debuffers for their spells.

Meles have the pressure and the CCs:
* Even with the debuff you are still speaking of medium armor versus robe, so except for the resists, BW/Sorc plays as a constantly debuffed Chop/Slay.
* The insane crit means also that they have been dropping at least 4-5 skills on a target, and I bet you that they can't survive 4-5 GCDs versus any mele of the game. Without the lack of hard CCs, and the knockdown in the part of the meles, if you are approached, 9 out 10 times you are knocked down and dead before it ends.
* You are still minimizing the Chop/Slay strengths to make them look like fail classes, and, hell no! They aren't.
* The base damage of BW/Sorc is very low, and only works out due to the crit mechanic. The same cannot be said about Chop/Slay, which base damage is more than ok and just scales to very generous with rage.
* Also you aren't taking into consideration that you have to cast things, and be set back while mele trained.

Honestly, I still think that you have no freaking idea of the classes that you speak of, or that you are deliberately trying to lie in your own favour. If such a failure of a class is, why so many people play it? Cause it's not. It's actually very strong and incredibly powerful, and can completely utter destroy any BW. BWs work to time stamp, but it requires no less than 5 seconds to do so, and I can definitely tell you that, even guarded and healed, if the opposite Choppa has the same, you are not going to outlast him in any way and you are going to die first thanks to the fact that your armor count is robe like. Armor potions making BWs unkillable by Choppas? Are you freaking joking or lieing?

4-5 gcd from mele as Bw pff. Try survive any mele class 1 full rotation from good Bw like Drukar, Simtex.