Return of Reckoning

Why not just change the priority to groups of 3+ over solo players in non-pug SCs? This would increase your chance of getting healers/tanks and putting up a fight. 1-2 players already have a pug SC.

peterthepan3 wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:33 am The day groups are further deterred from playing scenarios so as to appease solo players will be the day that the 4 or 5 groups still playing will leave for good.

Queue pug scenario, or better still - make your own group and challenge these premades! For Ragnar!

A bunch of elite player base will leave if you take away their ability to queue up against random players while they are grouped with 5 other regular people they play with regularly? Why would an elite player base leave if you didn't allow them to queue against random queuers? Why would an elite player base leave for leveling the playing field so they got competition when it existed, instead of randoms when it didn't? This isn't to PUNISH group players, it's to bring them the gameplay they are asking for when they group. A gameplay that puts them up against 6 other premade players, of either faction imo.

This is a low population server, and you should expect that when you want to play with 5 other people in the same group in an SC, that maybe the other side doens't have a team ready to play against you. So what has the game been doing to appease these people? Queueing them up against random people and ruin the whole SC experience? Not just for the 6 people, but for all the solo players?

If people want to group up, why would they want to play against people who aren't grouped up? If they want to group up in a non simulated environment meant to level the playing field for competitiion, then why don't they just roam RVR? Everyone has the same advantage there, and grouping up with numbers is the name of the game.

But when did queueing SCs allow for such an imbalance? Trust me, if 4 or 5 whole groups of "experienced" players threaten to leave because they don't get their unfair queues anymore, they are not the kinds of people we want in this game. They are the kinds of people making 6 sha groups camping Lighthouse in Nordenwatch, imo.

So let me guess. People have thought of coming up with this idea before, but didn't want to do stick with it because a really loud minority of the players said they would leave if they didn't get their easy cheesy kills against randoms anymore? You have to have more integrity if youi're going to bring more people to this game. And if people leave because the playing field is leveled, then let them leave because they aren't the ones trying to have a fair challenge anyways and, imo, are the supporters of what is still not going well. For every bad plan, you will always have your supporters.

Before I wrote this post, I had already thought about: "What if a buncha elitists come in here and say you're punishing them for taking away their cheesy queue imbalance?" For some reason I told myself they would be laughed out of forums for crying for an advantage over other people? But it's almost like it has been regarded as normal to see people come from an advantaged position and complain when someone talks about making things fair. Hmm.

Where does the gaul come from to come into an conversation and complain that having a competitive advantage and taking it away is unfair? I know a country currently doing that with their steel industry and if we just let them dump their advantage into the markets, it causes market disruption. What on earth do you think is happening when you dump 6 man premades into an SC vs randoms. It is literally the same thing. The quality of the SC decreases because of the premades, just as the quality of the steel decreases when China dumps cheap steel into the market. (Sorry for real world comparison)

For the cherry on top, there is only one sc you can play if you want to play alone. What? How are solo players not being punished? How are solo players being treated fairly? You would think a lot of time would spent into thinking about how to integrate these solo players into groups more smoothly. Instead we're actually limiting their options while allowing people with a comptitive advantage to dump their low quality, cheesy gameplay into the Warhammer market.

If you keep hearing the same things from people over time, and the only thing you are doing is keeping the same old people, then you should expect people to keep the game as it is as long as they have an advantage until the next game comes out, or the next patch, where they can go exhaust their desire for unfair gameplay elsewhere.

I understand that 6 man groups want to play the game. Why would 6 man groups want to play the game against randoms that probably have no idea what 75% of the moves in game are? Lets stop acting like the solo players are a buncha veterans that just can't find a group. Solo players are people who don't have a long time to commit. So, why punish people who don't have a long time to commit by giving people who have a long time to commit the ability to queue against them? It's just insane.

At Tidus:

I meant that if a 'bunch of elite 6-man players' (there's nothing inherently 'elite' about forming a group - contrary to popular opinion!) were to be further punished for the mere crime of forming a group in an MMO, then it would result in said 6-mans from looking elsewhere for their PvP shenanigans: they already have longer waiting times due to PuG sc popping nonstop at all hours of the day (similar emblems for win, and nothing incentivising going try-hard vs other groups in the group sc).

It's not about 'farming pugs' or 'punishing' people. It's actually an extraordinarily simple concept to grasp: you make the conscious decision to queue for all scenarios - while knowing that all means both groups AND solo/duo players - then you must accept when the odds are stacked against you. You have a solo scenario that allows you to avoid premades altogether, so the argument is moot from the get-go.

6-mans want to play the game the way that it was intended - just as warbands do: grouping up with other people of the human race so as to explore possibly synergies between classes, compete against other groups/wbs, do dungeon content (which is all, incidentally, 6-24 players), and socialise.

If '75%' don't know what the moves in the game are, then that is their prerogative: there are lots of guides out there (both on the forums and YouTube), people are happy to help ingame through the /advice channel, it's an incredibly easy game to come to grips with.

Does it suck when you come up against a 6/12 who have much better class variety than yours? YES! Does it suck when you have 4 suicidal Choppas vs their 2 tanks 2 heals? YES! Can you avoid such odds? You can by either forming or joining a guild/group: there's dozens to choose from if you look.

There is nothing inherently 'unfair' about a scenario in which the odds are stacked against you: you made the decision to do it alone without trying to find people to play with (and if you did try, then fair play to you but at least you have the PuG SC). If you insist on playing as a solo hero in an MMO then there is a solo scenario that caters specifically to this...moaning about unfairness of premades farming helpless players* (read: players who queue solo for everything despite knowing that there are premades out) is a complete nonargument.

At Seams:

Seams wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:05 am Yes less look at this from non clouded point of view. YOU expect a pug as you say with very limited time to:
1 try to find 5 other ppl to que

Entirely possible if you are looking at an active point during the day. If you are struggling to find people consistently then it may be down to several reasons: 1) people aren't recruiting; 2) people are already in groups; 3) RvR is particularly active (and so most are doing their WBs); 4) you are advertising during an inactive period (NA-sorta-hours); 5) (and no offense is meant by this, but) perhaps you have a 'reputation'.

2. Hope they are geared correctly

Provided they are in at least anni/bl/merc+ then they can perform against current levels of competition with relative ease. It's a nonargument (the early gearsets are incredibly easy to acquire if you have a modicum of time).

3. Hope they have right specs.

Well...of course they should? Why would I invite an AoE sorc to a 6-man? Players should be interested in optimising their play for whatever the situation demands.

4 have and use pots.

I don't do crafting (and never will), but I have always managed to grind a bit of gold out to ensure armor/heal/stat pots. It's not hard; don't be lazy.

5. Try to convince to get in discord.

It's 2019. Unless people have a genuine reason for not joining (we play with one KOBS on a regular basis who, despite having hearing problems, kicks ass even without comms), then there's no reason not to. Having said that, Discord isn't mandatory unless you're going up against a try-hard premade.

6 after the hour or so this takes then you want them to que WAIT for pop, face a premade that as you put it 4 or 5 groups that constantly play together always in coms who log on and are ready to go.

If you don't want to put the work in and aren't prepared to wait a bit (it is a small server) then you were never really committed in the first place, and should instead queue exclusively for the pug sc.

[quoteYou then proceed to farm them into spawn hold them for 10 or so minutes while you ignore objective to finish a match you clearly have upper hand so you can what??? [/quote]

Noone actively seeks to warcamp farm, but some scenarios do little but encourage it via their design.

So stop blaming other ppl because they don't want to que for that kind of garbage game play you display on a persistent basis. So GEAD

Why the hostility m8?

I like the ”I dont have time to form a group” argument. Still I tend to see the same people joining scs over and over again. Strange

Peterpan3:

Let's say there weren't ruled against weighted gloves in boxing. Then someone come along and points out the obvious: it's not going to result in a test of person vs. person, but person + heavy glove vs. person + normal gloves. Sure, there will be times when the normal gloves beats the weight glove boxer, but it is not a level playing field. If the boxers really want to test their skill against another boxers skill, why not have the same weighted gloves?

If you don't want to set weights on your gloves, why not fight against other people who have the same preference? I don't think solo players prefer being matched up against premades, versus being matched up versus other solo players.

There is only one sc to queue for if you want to solo queue. That is quite limiting. Why isn't it the other way around? If you want to queue premade, why not have an arena type sc instead of one with multiple BOs where your 6 man can't be?

Let's be honest here, we're talking about dopamine kicks in your brain. That's great. But these dopamine kicks are coming at a cost that should never have been the intended consequence, which is making solo play in scs terrible.

I'm more of an "inspire people to want to be a certain way," instead of "punish them into being a certain way." The end game is kind of menial, and veteran rr 80+ players need their dopamine, I get it. But I think there are more creative solutions to keeping these players entertained that unleashing them on random people.

You mentioned the game was intended for 6-24 player gameplay. Was it an accident most quests are solo-able? Or was it an accident that you can queue solo in an sc? I notice you only seem to be taking one side into account here, are you failing to see what so many people are talking about in chat channels in game? On streams in the chat?


Ignorance in a video game isn't what I would call a prerogative. It's the consequence for prioritizing other time consuming things before this video game. What I'm saying about rank 31s not knowing 75% of the moves, being put up against the highest ranked is just ridiculous. I think when they thought about whether or not a rank 31 should be in queue with a 40, they did not consider that the rank 31 has much less potential to have attained the same amount of knowledge.


What's unfair about this is that if you want or choose to queue solo, you have one sc. If you play the team-up against randoms game, you have many scs. Why incentivize one group of players while giving the other group one sc? Even for the veterans that often group, but only have time for a single queue solo, why should they just have one sc they could do?

IMO, making a level playing field for scs would attract more people to play the game, who can then get to rank 40 and make 6 man groups to queue up with. On the other hand, having the newer players who queue single get bulldozed by 6 man groups only favors the 6 man groups.

I still don't understand why 6 man premade groups would want to be queue up against 6 other random people?

I've heard seemingly many small voices talk about the same problems, they come and go. I've heard seemingly few loud voices support the current system, they stay. I'm not saying there isn't a good argument to keep things the way they are. I'm just saying at what point are people tired of watching people come and go, and want to start keeping more of these people here. I'm not saying the game won't grow without implementing any certain changes. I'm just saying that as I speak, Planetside 2 is right next to Warhammer on terms of population for twitch viewers, yet Planetside 2's average steam player base in jan of 2019 is 2x of that Warhammer's right now. Meaning on average they have 1800 players, it's right next to Warhammer's population right now, and we have 800 people on Warhammer. This is real. Why do we think the population is so low but the same amount of people are viewing a more populated game on Twitch? Because people love queueing for T1-T3 in prime times, but dread ever queueing the same way in T4. Warhammer acts like a bright star for a while that then fades out and maintains a lower player avg. player base because they don't stay. Just my opinion.

Truth be told, there's no honor in taking someone out that's not on your level. These solo players are not nationalist terrorist that need to be squashed. Imo, they're people trying to have fun and be given a system that queues them up against something that makes sense to be queued up against.

Imo, I'm looking out for both sides. The experienced players that want a real challenge, and the ones who want a level playing field queueing solo. There's no reason to please one at the expense of the other, when the other never should have had such a queue system to begin with.

FinalTidus21 wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:45 pm Peterpan3:

Let's say there weren't ruled against weighted gloves in boxing. Then someone come along and points out the obvious: it's not going to result in a test of person vs. person, but person + heavy glove vs. person + normal gloves. Sure, there will be times when the normal gloves beats the weight glove boxer, but it is not a level playing field. If the boxers really want to test their skill against another boxers skill, why not have the same weighted gloves?

Boxing analogy doesn't hold much weight (excuse the pun); if you made the conscious decision to bring lighter gloves against a weighted gloves opponent, you would be expecting to lose. Why then isn't the same true of solo players queuing for all scenarios while knowing full well that there are premades roaming? If you want to fight against people with 'normal gloves', then simply step into a different ring (solo scenario); don't step into the heavyweight ring and expect to knock out Anthony Joshua.

If you don't want to set weights on your gloves, why not fight against other people who have the same preference? I don't think solo players prefer being matched up against premades, versus being matched up versus other solo players.

Again: if you wish to fight against people with the same gloves you already have a pug/solo scenario that was made for this exact purpose.

There is only one sc to queue for if you want to solo queue. That is quite limiting. Why isn't it the other way around? If you want to queue premade, why not have an arena type sc instead of one with multiple BOs where your 6 man can't be?

More than one pug sc = people will deliberately choose the path of least resistance and queue for the pug sc only (same rewards + no rewards = no brainer) = less people in the other scenarios = even longer queue times = slower emblem/rr gain for people who are playing with others as per the design of the game. Also (and this is just my opinion): if we further encourage solo play in RoR, it will have negative effects later on in other aspects of the game (it already has - again, my opinion).

Let's be honest here, we're talking about dopamine kicks in your brain. That's great. But these dopamine kicks are coming at a cost that should never have been the intended consequence, which is making solo play in scs terrible.

Subjective. I love the solo sc: it's the easiest way to get my gear. Queue with a healer or a tank (or a duo made up of said two archetypes) and you'll have a great time. Solo play is really fun in the solo scenario (as it should be); it doesn't have to be fun/further incentivised in the other scenarios when there already exists a scenario that facilitates to it.

Ignorance in a video game isn't what I would call a prerogative. It's the consequence for prioritizing other time consuming things before this video game. What I'm saying about rank 31s not knowing 75% of the moves, being put up against the highest ranked is just ridiculous. I think when they thought about whether or not a rank 31 should be in queue with a 40, they did not consider that the rank 31 has much less potential to have attained the same amount of knowledge.

Well if anyone is being 'ignorant' it is you; ignoring the fact that scenarios are predicated on 1-3 teams working together to capture objectives, kill the enemy, and win the game.

What's unfair about this is that if you want or choose to queue solo, you have one sc. If you play the team-up against randoms game, you have many scs. Why incentivize one group of players while giving the other group one sc? Even for the veterans that often group, but only have time for a single queue solo, why should they just have one sc they could do?

Actually, premades only have one dedicated scenario, too: everyone (including solo players, duos, trios, and yes - even those disgusting & horrible 6-mans) can queue for the rest of the scenarios.

IMO, making a level playing field for scs would attract more people to play the game, who can then get to rank 40 and make 6 man groups to queue up with. On the other hand, having the newer players who queue single get bulldozed by 6 man groups only favors the 6 man groups.

Again: if you are being 'bulldozed' by 6 man groups, then stop queuing for all scenarios when you know that said bulldozer-premades are out in force, and start queuing exclusively for the solo scenario where said bulldozer-premades can't get you.

I still don't understand why 6 man premade groups would want to be queue up against 6 other random people?

God's honest truth? Most premades who are still playing only care about killing pugs and have no desire to fight against other premades (this was seen last week during the 6v6 tournament, when the same old suspects - bar one or two newcomers!- attended). If there were actually incentives to actively seek out other premades, this could change; even if it doesn't, it still isn't a 'problem' for groups to kill unorganised players when said unorganised players could organise themselves if they were so inclined.

wow you guys know how to kill a popcorn thread.

Im not sure what Peter doesnt understand?

This is not an attack on group play, as you like to spin EVERY PUG vs 6man argument. Look at the history, you are and have been recorded going on how pugs want it easy and how they are **** players (screen your streams, you and your teammates degrade the competition) openly.

Im ok with premades que'ing SC, but why should they be fed PUGS over and over while the pugs have just one SC to pug in. Please tell me how ppl entering t4 are learning to adapt to new abilities and group play when the fastest que is feeding them to premades?

I have que'd premades and timer is not that long when premades are que'ing. Its only long when none are que'ing. This is ONE of the only MMO's that I have ever seen openly feeding organized play by giving them sub optimal groups s of pugs. What utter nonsense.

So PETER stop coming here and defending your loan source of EASY gear progression and power leveling your friends. We the minority who have played this game since T1 before your ass was ever here know when a SNAKE is in the GARDEN.

Seams wrote: Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:02 am We the minority who have played this game since T1...

This isn't exactly hidden information. You should calm down on the toxicity, particularly towards a staff member.

Seams
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Seams wrote: Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:02 am Im not sure what Peter doesnt understand?

This is not an attack on group play, as you like to spin EVERY PUG vs 6man argument. Look at the history, you are and have been recorded going on how pugs want it easy and how they are **** players (screen your streams, you and your teammates degrade the competition) openly.

Im ok with premades que'ing SC, but why should they be fed PUGS over and over while the pugs have just one SC to pug in. Please tell me how ppl entering t4 are learning to adapt to new abilities and group play when the fastest que is feeding them to premades?

I have que'd premades and timer is not that long when premades are que'ing. Its only long when none are que'ing. This is ONE of the only MMO's that I have ever seen openly feeding organized play by giving them sub optimal groups s of pugs. What utter nonsense.

So PETER stop coming here and defending your loan source of EASY gear progression and power leveling your friends. We the minority who have played this game since T1 before your ass was ever here know when a SNAKE is in the GARDEN.

meh, you learn nothing in pug sc's besides: farming pugs


let's be honest, the only thing why everybody q's this crap (a single map over one month) is because you can bring your pocket heal / pocketguard and outplay potentially 12 opposing players while making lightning speed gear progress (permanent pops around the clock, 60%/70%/80% winprobability when you bring your pocket "x") + you don't have to shout n scream in your instantmessengers and guildchats / alliancechats for + 1 heal / DPS / tank AND DON'T have to potentially face 6 tryhards.


the whole discussion would be obsolete if:

a) there was no pug sc

and

b) the level 31-39 dudes, which are anyway on a fast journey to level 40, had there own bracket to que with or would be sorted to the T3 players; would probably be a worse experience for all the lower level players, but the balance down there is in the grand sceme of plans irrelevant.