Healer cap in Sc's

[Foomy44]

The biggest probleme in pugs is that the team that looses dont get shait..That is what needs to be fixed..being in a sc fighting your ass off and getting 500 xp and 23 renown and the winning team getting 50k xp and 2500 renown gonna hurt the game alltogather....fix that and it wont be as hard loosing offent due to imbalanced teams...meaning something you cant control.

You used to not get an emblem when you lost. Now you do. IMO they already fixed this problem. Since you clearly aren't being accurate with your claim of "looses dont get shait" it's a bit hard to take your argument seriously. People could keep exaggerating like you are and say the same thing no matter how much free stuff the devs throw at the losers until they earn the same as the winners, not something I want to see happen.

[orillah]

99% of the time you afk at camp if your team have 0 heals vs enemys 1-x. If there was not quitter debuff most will surely leave. And whats wrong with fair play?

[peterthepan3]

The biggest probleme in pugs is that the team that looses dont get shait..That is what needs to be fixed..being in a sc fighting your ass off and getting 500 xp and 23 renown and the winning team getting 50k xp and 2500 renown gonna hurt the game alltogather....fix that and it wont be as hard loosing offent due to imbalanced teams...meaning something you cant control.

Dunno about you, but personally? Constant losing and getting minimal rewards would motivate me to make a group so as to stop it from happening all the time.

[Mystry]

Dunno about you, but personally? Constant losing and getting minimal rewards would motivate me to make a group so as to stop it from happening all the time.

This is such an invalid argument. Order simply does not have enough regular healers or tanks (true healers and true tanks) to make that an actual option. As I said in another thread, see Hellokitty's nightly 4 hour long hunt for a single healer and/or tank for evidence.

[Foomy44]

I would unironically support forcing both sides to have the same number of true healers.

Order simply does not have enough regular healers or tanks (true healers and true tanks) to make that an actual option. As I said in another thread, see Hellokitty's nightly 4 hour long hunt for a single healer and/or tank for evidence.

So, your ideal plan is no SC's for 4 hours every night? Or is it just that no healers get to play SCs during those hours? Of course I'm totally ignoring the fact that destro has just as many no healer games as order for this argument. Also ignoring the fact that you, Hellokitty, anyone in your guild, anyone else that plays those hours etc. could just roll a healer/tank and fix this problem, which seems like an "actual option" to me. Not an ideal one, but a whole lot better than no SCs for the whole server every night.

[Arteker616]

Dunno about you, but personally? Constant losing and getting minimal rewards would motivate me to make a group so as to stop it from happening all the time.

This is such an invalid argument. Order simply does not have enough regular healers or tanks (true healers and true tanks) to make that an actual option. As I said in another thread, see Hellokitty's nightly 4 hour long hunt for a single healer and/or tank for evidence.

have you thinked some people avoid some people looking for others due to past experiences with such groups?.

[Mystry]

So, your ideal plan is no SC's for 4 hours every night? Or is it just that no healers get to play SCs during those hours? Of course I'm totally ignoring the fact that destro has just as many no healer games as order for this argument. Also ignoring the fact that you, Hellokitty, anyone in your guild, anyone else that plays those hours etc. could just roll a healer/tank and fix this problem, which seems like an "actual option" to me. Not an ideal one, but a whole lot better than no SCs for the whole server every night.

Yes, I'd rather have no pops than get the typical 500-0 loss spam that Order usually gets because there are zero healers or tanks.
Also I am not Hellokitty.
And I've already rolled both a tank and healer, and usually play tank. One person is not enough.

[Foomy44]

So, your ideal plan is no SC's for 4 hours every night? Or is it just that no healers get to play SCs during those hours? Of course I'm totally ignoring the fact that destro has just as many no healer games as order for this argument. Also ignoring the fact that you, Hellokitty, anyone in your guild, anyone else that plays those hours etc. could just roll a healer/tank and fix this problem, which seems like an "actual option" to me. Not an ideal one, but a whole lot better than no SCs for the whole server every night.

Yes, I'd rather have no pops than get the typical 500-0 loss spam that Order usually gets because there are zero healers or tanks.
Also I am not Hellokitty.
And I've already rolled both a tank and healer, and usually play tank. One person is not enough.

That's great that you don't want to play the nights that there is no healer playing SCs on your realm, you already have the option to do so by not queuing. Taking away the option of playing those nights from everyone else on the server seems like a crappy design choice to me.

I'm aware you aren't HelloKitty, that's why I listed you separately in my reply.

[ragafury]

Dunno about you, but personally? Constant losing and getting minimal rewards would motivate me to make a group so as to stop it from happening all the time.

wall of text:

Spoiler:

can see it this way or the other:

every other game nowadays has a matchmaking function where you q'up and the MM tries to find valid opponents in terms of skill and depending on genre you can sometimes pre-select a role. (support - carry - hardlaner/offlaner - middle etc.)

since the game is too small for a MM system like glicko; glicko2 or elo while the skill variety is too high (will result in 40 hour q time or simply no pops for teams / players on the extreme ends of the gaussian bellcurve) the only reasonable approach is to make the matchmaker "smarter"; means teach him to build grps or at least assemble semi funcitoning comps.

I will bet that this will a) have competitve impact in all sc related directions (higher quality pug sc, higher quality 12 v 12, more 6v6, cause ppl don't start from 0 / with 0 experience and maybe lick blood) and b) will improve gameplay overall.

usually such systems generate quality time.

dota has enabled ranked role q atm; in my 2-3 months (semi)inactivity in RoR I played a buttload.; I had 79% win rate since I could always pick my prefered role and enjoyed the time spend since I played with ppl. which somewhat knew what there job is and they agreed prematch on performing said job; guess what, I added a lot of them to my friendslist, since we don't play the same role / position (so no prematch fighting and whining; eg for ror: WE HAZ NO HEAL0RS GG WE LOST) and I enjoyed playing with them so we can grp q / 5 man ranked q and invited them to my TS³.

WoW Arena doesn't care about your setup since you Q up with a team, so it's your responsibility.
though there is the rating system which gurantees good matches / fun matches / matches with same skilllevel at least most of the time.

but the only 3 arena maps which are "valid arena" maps which exist in this game are IC, CW, Isha imo.
WoW was also way more competitve, cause there was a ranking system.
ranking systems matter a lot psychologically.

Here it is:
why I should try? I can just halfass because I don't lose rank, and if I lose this SC, I maybe win the next. I can just "idle" my dominator together (1 token per SC only 2199 to go!), and maybe, cause it's usually for secondary / off specs, you won't even need it.

In WoW you had pressure: - elo (regress!), no mount, no title, no gear (at least when SC gear required ranking, isn't the case anymore afaik); so no carrots for underachievers.

Besides that, players can benchmark themselves, a component which this game totally misses.
also just because you beat "Team 2nd" all the time, you are not automatically the best team, in mmorpg's it can simply be setup related (A beats B, B beats C, C beats A etc. even with same skill; some stuff is easy to play (cheese) while other setups aren't (RMP in WoW as an example when I played)); ranking / elo systems help there, because they visualize your sucess into a medal / rank / number (usually not the case here since, skill difference is real overall).
So the motivation to get ranked and benchmark AND to actually improve is a complete different in other games than here and those games come with complete other stimuli to achieve such (inject stress to perform) and visualize improvement directly via rating gain.

the 12 v 12 sc's in RoR are more comparable to a weirdo mix of:
an arena team q'd with pugs vs another arena team q'd with pugs playing some kind of unranked match / battleground or other possible constilations (pug + pre v pug + pug; pre + pre v pre + pre; pug + pug v pug + pug).

usually the matches are fairly onesided, with one team holding / farming the other team at the spawn or on an battlefield objective, often it results in a stomp or a number crunch depending on the pug : premade ratio; if there isn't a level, renown, gear and / or skill difference.

the current literation of this handler doesn't generate quality matches, at least not in the pug sc or in the 12 v 12 sc's imo.
it just straight fails often.

few weeks ago I / we q'd isha / EC we ran into some ppl running a level 37 Ironbreaker as one of there tanks.
I bet they just wanted to have fun, but I doubt it was for them, nor for us.
so even there, stuff can be far away from competitve unless you organize a 6v6 via forums. ((hi@ CS in 2005 IRC channels, looking for 5v5 mid+ to high) in 2k18))

so whatever,...

imo what should been done:

q pug sc: everything stays as it is; enjoy your random setup git; maybe even pick atrocious maps now and than; after the 40th match of blood of blackcairn everybody will hit the q all button or look for a team.

q all solo: put me in the pug sc with some random grp setup OR if you assign me to the non pug sc's , put me at least in a 2-2-2; only match there pug + pug v pug + pug OR pug + pre v pug + pre OR pre v pre but not pug pug v pre pug etc.

exclude duo from pug sc. assign duo's to the 2-2-2 bracket; it's a cheap way to farm tokens / rr, dodge grp'd pvp and farm totally ungrouped players. everybody has done that. no shame, but it's just cheap. if you roll in with max geared high RR chars, chances are pretty high that you have a 80% winratio. any bad intention to ruin this should be punished with a trip to moon once proof'd.
count 3x2, which would result in a matching 2-2-2 setup, as a premade to "punish" them for not forming a grp.

if you q with a 2hd tank you count as a tank, if you q with your DPS shaman / AM you count as a healer; doesn't matter, would already improve the matchmaking quality. there is always the option to respec.
it's still better than to play 4 tanks, PBAOE magus and a level 31 MDPS as an example.
For non of the 6 players it's gonna be a satisfying experience.

also not sure, if the sc handler could give an output what's need to open an SC / generate a pop.
probably would also be helpfull. (+1 healer +1 DPS and go); so ppl can log accordingly and get "fast progression".

redesign the scenario tiers;
anyway pointless atm.

T1: 1-15
T2 + T3: 16 - 39
T4: 40

grant 4th tactic slot at RR 32; bolster is crap for RvR at this point, and it doesn't really matter if it turns balance upside down in that particular bracket: face the truth, nobody cares about balance in the lower bracket SCs; and no offense, but underleveled tanks and DPS will barely have any meaningful impact in the T4 sc's (exceptions confirm the rule, but it's a very small number); usually they run around, leech and feed; even with the best intentions to help as much as they can while beeing busy learning there class, defacto they get carried (unless matched with baddies vs baddies, but that can't be the point were balance is made around). 50% of the doks / wp's are specced mdps to PvE grind, in general most classes are specced for PvE grind at that particular point, some don't even switch to better tactics and morales. it just lowers matchmaking quality for players at 40 in general, no matter if pug or 12v12 or even battle for praag.

even with the game progressing and maybe more time to handle other parts of the game once the old content is recreated / implemented, I doubt there will ever be time, or a possibility, to get all tier brackets of the game to "close to balanced / almost balanced state"; so just life with that imperfection and focus on the maxlevel, where most chars spend there majority of time.


imo the game requires drastical changes in that regard to "deliver" quality time and good or at least as close to balanced matches without the constant need to spam /5 for minutes / hours or to fix a date via the forums / discords.

imo I think every player is interested in less pops with higher quality and better PvP than chainloss 10 sc's or roflstomp 10 sc's in a row (yeah it's nice for the currency bag, but it's not satisfying gameplay, or is it? ).

there is no injected stress / stimuli to perform well, whatsoever.
so ppl usually will underperform, unless rewarded for good performance.
(how about MVP with small plus reward for good performances, or even big ones ?)

I'm personally beyond the point of believe that "form a grp, solve your (SC)problems" will solve the competitve state of the game / server; and to come back to the quote; I mean you should be concerned too, you organized a tournament with 6 teams attending (that's ~36 / 800 - 1000), and I don't mean that in a bad way, my respect for the try and all the work, but it is what it is.

you could also preach 100.000 times for warbands (make a premade, make a premade,... ), still ppl will check the open grp tool and join the next best with a slot open while the leader is too busy, doesn't know better or gives a crap about setup, comms, movement, tactics or anything wb related and is more busy to administrate the setups in his pugwb than actual leading, or worse, idle semi afk on a flag which they were teached conditioned since T1 in RvR and Nordenwatch.
though SCs are fixable via smart matchmaking imo, while RvR / pugWBs aren't, just because of the limited number of players per SC and the limited base which is q'd.

though while I state this all, I don't share the opinion that sc's are just a minigame.
sc's were the main thing I liked back in live and why I found this server (remember this strange tower battlegound in WAR with it's layers and teleports? let's check if there is a private server...), and they were totally different and cooler than WoW arenas and battlegounds (besides Nagrand Arena (best PvP mmo map ever) and Zergtarac Valley (just because it was back than so complex, easy and visually impressive at the same time (questing area, PvE and PvP all in one).

so for me personally it's at least 1/3rd of the content.
and let's also be serious, nobody has a premade 24/7 on demand, so it's pug sc solo / duo; /5 or logout.

[peterthepan3]

Dunno about you, but personally? Constant losing and getting minimal rewards would motivate me to make a group so as to stop it from happening all the time.

This is such an invalid argument. Order simply does not have enough regular healers or tanks (true healers and true tanks) to make that an actual option. As I said in another thread, see Hellokitty's nightly 4 hour long hunt for a single healer and/or tank for evidence.

This is probably true in NA times, but I know for a fact that the NA guilds I play with during NA hours always manage to put out a full 6 because they have players who will roll healers/tanks so as to make for regular 6s.

If you are solo/in a guild where everyone wants to play DPS then you'll have problems (moreso during NA hours).

Perhaps Order NA needs more selfless players