WE/WH and their ROLE in ORvR

[dansari]

We've run a Dragon Gun WH in our warband before. You basically target the backline healers with a giant outgoing heal debuff, pair it with an AM pump for a 65ft 1600 m2. It worked with relative success.

[ragafury]

Warband Setup 101

Spoiler:

Group 1

Tank
Tank
DPS
DPS
Healer
Healer

Group 2

Tank
Tank
DPS
DPS
Healer
Healer

Group 3
Tank
Tank
DPS
DPS
Healer
Healer

Group 4
Tank 1
Support 1 <--- your possible slot is here
Support 2 DPS 1/2 <--- your possible slot is here
DPS 1/2 <--- your possible slot is here
Healer 1 (Zealot)
Healer (usually shaman for utility, can be replaced by a DOK)

What you do in theory in a fight:

Spoiler:

You go backline and shutdown a rdps or healer.
the damage and forced detaunt + movement is significant. (you are keeping 1/8 of the enemy DPS or HPS "busy", so they can't bomb / heal freely.
everybody will tell now: lul detaunt, yes you can detaunt a witchelf, still it hurts and you need to adapt, even in warbands and you need to react to the threat and may burn a CD to stabilize yourself or potions etc. if you don't die from the WE.
maybe there is some guarded other ST mdps which can advance to your positon and shred the target appart right at the start of a fight. (still the maybe allready implies there is another parameter (guarded ST mdps).
also you will get by with it almost ignored cause no AOE / large group will shift and center there mass towards you when there is 23 people (or more) in front which need a shutdown. so you take out 1/8 of the enemy warbands dps or hps.

though keep in mind, this is highly theoretical. praxis is more like: do one single mistake and you can wait for a rezz cause cloath bikini and opted for glasscanon stlye gameplay.

What you do in theory in general what other classes can't do.

Spoiler:

besides bypassing postern and the other stuff which marauders and choppas can achieve too:
you can scout.

example gratia 1):
Chaos Waste - BO Shrine of time:
while your warband hides nearby you can stand next to the BO and can call incoming so the moment of surprise is on your side.

example gratia 2)
Thunder Mountain - Gromril Kruk or Doomstriker Vein
you can scout the caves in advance and share the information with your warband.
"3rd BT right side, pug warband centered behind 3rd BT" as an example.

example gratia 3)
bypass postern - stealth -> stealth to oil -> kill oil damn quick / or at least dmg it pretty hard with 2 healers focus healing you

example gratia 4)
bypass postern and scout how the enemy funnel is positioned and which guilds / groups stand where

I'm not even a witch e player myself and know these applications.

your class description even says pretty damn accurate what you shall do:
Infiltration and Assasination.

Why WE is not used much:

Spoiler:

however: in warband setups support slots are precious as you can see above.

so in praxis you run 99% of the time a magus for rift cause it's kinda the best playmaker this mmo has to offer in largescale
so 2 slots are left in a perfect (!!!) world at max.

there is now a multitude you can prefer in comparision to a witch elf or if you see it the other way around, these classes contest your spot:

sorc with 10% dmg for group
guarded choppa with chop fasta or ST choppa with both major debuffs
Zealot DPS
Blackguard 2hd for CD spam
2hd chosen for a little dmg reduction and guard
and many more.

mix this up with the abscence of aoe dps and versitality out of stealth and you have the awnser to my thesis.

so as a matter of fact, WE can work in a comp:
still:
needs to be communicative cause you are the warbands eyes when scouting, otherwise pointless to run one
needs to know were ST pressure is best applied
needs to make the magic happen with low support
there are other options on the market which work too and are easier to implement

imo it's a wasted slot when fighting superior numbers, which is the best "allround plan" you can opt for in general on a daily basis with 24 man.

we also used it as 13th / 19th man when we were running 2fg / 3fg setups. quite successfully. also player is great and could handle himself without support, but plays now mainly chosen for the guild in our 4fg setups.

hope I could help to clarify.

[dansari]

we also used it as 13th / 19th man when we were running 2fg / 3fg setups. quite successfully. also player is great and could handle himself without support, but plays now mainly chosen for the guild in our 4fg setups.

Partyelf?

E: nvm he's in Phalanx

[Haojin]

we also used it as 13th / 19th man when we were running 2fg / 3fg setups. quite successfully. also player is great and could handle himself without support, but plays now mainly chosen for the guild in our 4fg setups.

Partyelf?

E: nvm he's in Phalanx

he can wish.

[Penril]

On the contrary, balance in RoR revolves around anything from 6v6/Group play up to 24v24 (at least that is what I believe the team's official stance on balance is, Penril can correct this if I'm in the wrong).

That was Aza's stance, and mine as well. Not entirely sure what current team and leads think though. However I did ask about WH/WE, and they kinda share my opinion: WE/WH do have a role in RvR. Solo, small scale, BO harassment, ganking... and they are pretty good at it.

If you want a major role in a warband, try a different class. I don't see a problem with this since we have the same issue with some classes that are great in Warbands, but just ok-ish in 6-man groups. That's just how this game is designed.

[Coma]

On the contrary, balance in RoR revolves around anything from 6v6/Group play up to 24v24 (at least that is what I believe the team's official stance on balance is, Penril can correct this if I'm in the wrong).

That was Aza's stance, and mine as well. Not entirely sure what current team and leads think though. However I did ask about WH/WE, and they kinda share my opinion: WE/WH do have a role in RvR. Solo, small scale, BO harassment, ganking... and they are pretty good at it.

If you want a major role in a warband, try a different class. I don't see a problem with this since we have the same issue with some classes that are great in Warbands, but just ok-ish in 6-man groups. That's just how this game is designed.

fine... so WE/WH are not meant to take part in organized WB play (about this there is a great difference from being OK-ish and being just a filler for a not needed role)... and nothing will be done in the future (close or far) to change this... so we just have a class that is cut off from part of the game and from the first M in MMO.

While I don't agree with this view... since it is the view of the staff all I can do is resign myself to this (I had already shelved my WE after the "fix" of breoad severing and was just bringing this argument on for class balance sake)... you should close the tread since it has been answeared and any more will only be people lamenting the staff decision and is (as stated from the beguinning) not the aim I created this tread for ^^.

THX for the cooperation

[Faef]

I raised the proposal, but that was based on thinking everything was supposed to be balanced on wb vs wb, which appears to have been incorrect.

We excel at small scale/scouting the lakes, but has anyone actually spent any time in the lakes recently? It wasn't easy, by any means, to escape the masses before, but now with large numbers, dots breaking stealth (and the ease with which you acquire multiple dots, therefore increasing the chance) is a problem. You engage single targets and pray no one turns up, otherwise there's no chance of escape. I've even slotted cw2 to work around this, but once cleansed, its 50/50 whether the mob chasing me are able to land further, several dots, during the cast time of stealth.

I don't disagree with dots affecting stealth, but i do take issue with not having a way to counter this. If we are saying that small scale is the viable role we/wh excel at then they should have an option to escape. I don't think having to slot a renown ability so that my mechanic does its job some of the time, is particularly fair.

@Torque am i wasting my time if i raise a proposal about this? It will essentially be the ability to fire self buffing skills from stealth.

[Tesq]

WH/WE have as much of a role in any composition, organized or otherwise as they, or the group forge for them, If the group is lazy and formulaic then the group is lazy and formulaic, some things will always be easier for the herd to make use out of.

“Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.”
“The whole secret lies in confusing the enemy, so that he cannot fathom our real intent.”
“If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him."
“Great results, can be achieved with small forces.”
“If his forces are united, separate them.”
“If he sends reinforcements everywhere, he will everywhere be weak.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

and many, many more examples of things a WH/WE can do for the overall battle which other classes cannot achieve easily.

exept that every class can do this.....but not all class can do equal aoe...

wh/we suppose to be a healers haras in rvr they can out. heal debuff some but basically debuffing all wb healing exept the fact that the bigger the zerg the more this tactic is hard to pull out because no access to real aoe finisher spam and you need to go very out of reach, stuff that you should not do in this game.

[Asherdoom]

balance in RoR is centered around "ORGANIZED LARGE GROUPS" and not solo/small scale... this is a statament that come directly from the staff and has been used as an argument against those lamenting that a specific change would have affected the small scale/solo ...

ive never seen a post of GM/database developer confirming this, only random sporadic topic on forum from unknow users.

if you pretend to balance a MMO on open rvr means you totally screw 6v6 aspect/scenario premade aspect of the game, which further break the game.
there is not a single MMORPG in history that was balanced around warband vs warband.

I think a class rebalance would be tonic on this game, just my opinion. Is frustrating playng a useless class discarded in warbands beause have no singergy whatsoever or bring nothing more than "i go all in-kill healer-die-release-repeat". lets face the truth. at the actual state of the things WH and WE maybe funny to play, but in WB utterly useless. Beter take mara or slayer/WL

You understand of course I play a WH and a WE, you have ways to counter dots in disrupt from stacking the stat itself and you can pop shroud or elixir of the cauldron before going in stealth as stealthbreak is only on damage, not disrupt and its chance is pretty low even on damage, sometimes you lose out, such is life.

As they stand they do the job just fine and will only have their role expanded upon as further value is dialed into the BOs

As to a proposal you can make any you like, how it progresses I cant tell you as lack a crystal ball.

I understand this statement but honestly sepeaking during siege status or wb vs warband such role is not needed. the blob need ppl that can go in and do their hard work.
I have no idea how classes were on live but hoestly in premade i see very few WE.
i totally understand the concept would be "Roam and kill the guy alone running around" but for a game based on blob zerg vs blob zerg is not that appealing. I would have appreciated such mechanics in Wolrd of Warcraft for example, were they would shine in arena. Unfortuantely here is totally different. Even as engi i speak on order side, WE now are nothing more than free kill. Especially when i roam with premade group. No matter the heals they get we focus all on her and she goes down no matter the disrupt. Healdebuff destroy her survivability and if you stack full disrupt you lack the offence as WE is needed o have i guess.

Just my personal opinion obviously.

[dansari]

Take WL in WB