[Review] [SW] Steady Aim

[Ugle]

All of the proposed changes would be useless in assault stance like today. Another option would be to move the 1,5 sec buildup to a 1,5 sec added cd on the skill. Currently you cannot use any instant skill (everything melee) with steady aim unless you stand still, which is a death sentence. This way you would benefit from the high critchance given for a short moment to guarantee high burst from crits without it being OP. This would also open up multiple gear/spec options as it would provide good crit burst on demand for a short while. (I.E not mandatory with crit gear/tactic and still provide decent dmg for short bursts)

[Manatikik]

Spoiler:

Not sure I agree that the first would be preferred. I think it would make an already viable LA bombing SW stronger, which I'm not sure we want. Picture: I'm already running maybe 10% base ranged crit chance (to make maths easy), plus I'm running bullseye (+20% crit), plus I get extra crit from my group: maybe I've got a knight running Encouraged Aim (I think that's still 10%, correct me if I'm wrong), or Dirty Tricks for an added 5%. So I'm already sitting at 35%-40% crit chance. Now I get Steady Aim, which gives me 25-50% crit chance, to bump me up to 60%-90%! crit chance. I can get at least two LA's off and I practically crit everyone in front of me for those 6 seconds. It would basically become a morale bomb on squishy targets, and the only way to mitigate it would be to HTL. And the risk would absolutely be worth it, since with enough healers and tanks to protect you, you can be pretty tanky even in warband play.

Wouldn't be super OP in small scale, but would be devastating in orvr, at least by my mediocre math.

For #2 -- honestly any buildup increaser probably won't be used (at least by me) even if it does grant added crit chance. It slows down the rotation and still doesn't really allow you to apply burst damage, which I agree is something that SWs are missing.

What I might prefer to see is giving some sort of skill(s) that can be part of the normal SW rotation, but give different bonuses based on which stance you use it in. For example, if I'm in Assault, I would love to see some self-sustain options to increase my defense. If I'm in Scout, maybe I want more burst with Fester or FtW, and if I'm in Skirmish, maybe I want more Toughness or the ability to shred Toughness from my targets. So, something like:

6s with 15s cooldown Steady Aim

• If used in Assault, grants 25% returned hp on damage dealt in those 6 seconds
  If used in Scout, grants +20% armor pen
  If used in Skirmish, grants Toughness steal (60 per target hit for a max of 180)

This gives SWs more of a skill ceiling by allowing them to choose when to use Steady Aim, makes Steady Aim part of a standard rotation, and doesn't grant a flat buff that could make Skirmish OP. I think moving in that direction (more choice, variety based on stances) would be better than a flat crit increaser across the board.

Could make it so it doesn't apply to LA (if thats possible?); thought I brought that up in OP but I guess I was trying to sneak it through? The second proposal is more targeted to Scout and Assault instant cast skills and not so much Skirmish. IMO Scout and Assault are more about burst damage while Skirmish is more constant/support DPS.

Spoiler:

Ok, I will tell you. No!

The last thing order, and especially SW, needs is another crit buff. Multiple Crit tactics, crit buffs via spells and Ini debuffs. To even discuss about more buffs for the SW is an infamy.
The only proper crit counter destro has is the BG, until this hasnt changed there should be no more crit buffs for order.

1) Steady Aim changes to increase your chance to critically hit and be critically hit by 25/50% for 6 Seconds on a 30/60 second cooldown. This is my preferred change because it gives equal risk/reward to the SW and rewards good play by the SW if they use it under safer circumstances to mitigate the risk.

Where is the risk in that? Order kiting capability is insanely good and SWs defense skills are also more then enough.

1) Crit stacking is Order's version of Destro's Morale Pumping imo; two different ways to bring massive damage out.

2) The risk? Its LITERALLY the same for the SW as is the pay off... A SH will kill me as fast as I can kill it, Magus is close (though with DoT changes not as close), and now the Sorc WILL crit me every time and kill me faster. Theres the counter play. Unless you're trying to balance around a RDPS free casting on a mdps/healer that are just completely ignoring the threat then yea, there is not risk at all to the SW.

Spoiler:

I don't like solution number 1 because it would limit certain builds which rely on Assault stance. Most of the time when Assault SW is in combat it is under hard pressure because SW in melee range = priority target = easy kill. We don't have aoe detaunt, snare breakers or any other "oh shh!" buttons exept WP. So in my opinion this kind of change wouldn't have much use especially when SW already can gimp its chance to be crit hit with Bullseye (basically this solution just mirrors this tactic - we don't need it)
But I like the idea of solution number 2. For me it can be a fair trade : you would decrease your burst speed, but would increase the overall damage. So you would have some new possibilities. Also it would require better management of your rotations which is quite good, class really needs some new ways to actually think about your skills and not just spam X-Y-Z-repeat.
Also I would like to see how it would affect skills w/o cast times. Would they have 0.5 sec cast?

Yea Solution 1 doesn't really help Assault SW; but imo every change shouldn't affect Assault in the best way or else it may get overtuned too easily. And on the OP my idea was to make the crit chance only 25% instead of an additional build-up.


Edit: Formatting is hard

[Coma]

I fail to see why the dot changes has any relevance to a sw , this change affects pretty much all classes both offensive and defensive. The inclusion of this in the argument for change should mean all classes get given an equivalent improvement.

The DoT changes are irrelevant, yes. But the issue raised by OP is still valid in my eyes: Steady Aim sucks.

I concur that steady aim suck... crit boost is obviously aimed for burts damage... but increased casting time is antitetic to burst damage...

YET simply removing casting increase from steady aim will make it too powerfull, especially so with the current ORvR meta that already focus on SW LA+ES spam (and correct me if I'm wrong but here on RoR Organized ORvR is the focus when it come to balance)... SW also already have access to a considerable crit chance (base crit can hit 20+% with easy and that will proc bull's eye for an additiona 20%... add some ini debuff and you already sit at around 50% effective crit chance...) if we increase it even more than the result will be a crit spam for 6 second... 4 or 5 autocrit LA in 6 second will be even worse than previous LA+UF ^^'

IMHO while Steady Aim does indeed need to be changed a crit chance increase is not the way to go, give it a flat damage increase (15/20%) or armor penetration (since 90% of SW skill are effected by armor this will certenly result in a bonus worth using for burst damage)

One more thing, current steady aim is indeed useless but it is also tought as a skill that with 6 second duration would affect 2 or 3 skill max (most likely 2), when removing the increased casting time, whatever the effect that would be put on the skill, we should take this into consideration, either greatly reducing the efficency of the buff or halving the buff duration... so either a nice damage buff with a 6 scond duration or a big boost with 3-4 second duration max

PS: one thing that people seem to miss; both currently and after the proposed change DoT will still be used in the same way.. casted BEFORE steady aim and not after, since the crit chance for each tick is calculated at the moment of the damage not at the moment of cast...
so there is no reason to "waste" 1 gcd of the buff to cast a dot... it is much better to cast it right before the buff so that the dot will actualy benefit of the full duration of the buff while you cast DIRECT DAMAGING skill during the buff since they need to hit while the buff is still running..

PS2: the efficency of steady aim is also greately affected by projectile speed (currently still under revision) since with the current steady aim you can fire off a skill while under the buff but the hit will land after the buff is over... that is also why a good burst combo with current projectile speed and steady aim is to actualy use long castingtime+slow animation skill FOLLOWED by steady aim so that they will HIT once the budd is up but without the skill being affected by the cast increase

[Shing]

PS2: the efficency of steady aim is also greately affected by projectile speed (currently still under revision) since with the current steady aim you can fire off a skill while under the buff but the hit will land after the buff is over... that is also why a good burst combo with current projectile speed and steady aim is to actualy use long castingtime+slow animation skill FOLLOWED by steady aim so that they will HIT once the budd is up but without the skill being affected by the cast increase

Is this the intended use of the skill though? Maybe I just interpret it differently, but casting during time-of-flight seems like a sneaky way to get around the drawbacks of the skill and imo just another reason it should be changed. Also its already buggy https://github.com/WarEmu/WarBugs/issues/2694. Another reason why it should be changed. Unless its clear that using it these ways is fair use, in which case I have a new spike rotation to use.

Spoiler:

What I might prefer to see is giving some sort of skill(s) that can be part of the normal SW rotation, but give different bonuses based on which stance you use it in. For example, if I'm in Assault, I would love to see some self-sustain options to increase my defense. If I'm in Scout, maybe I want more burst with Fester or FtW, and if I'm in Skirmish, maybe I want more Toughness or the ability to shred Toughness from my targets. So, something like:

6s with 15s cooldown Steady Aim

• If used in Assault, grants 25% returned hp on damage dealt in those 6 seconds
  If used in Scout, grants +20% armor pen
  If used in Skirmish, grants Toughness steal (60 per target hit for a max of 180)

This gives SWs more of a skill ceiling by allowing them to choose when to use Steady Aim, makes Steady Aim part of a standard rotation, and doesn't grant a flat buff that could make Skirmish OP. I think moving in that direction (more choice, variety based on stances) would be better than a flat crit increaser across the board.

If these changes are possible I see a lot of potential here. I'll have to think more about how they would affect balance overall, but my first reaction is that they could be scaled in a fair manner.

[footpatrol2]

So I think steady aim's power level might have been drastically increased due to how dots work right now. Put a bunch of dots on a target then hit steady aim. Now those dots have a 50% increase on chance to crit or am I just wrong on this?

[Manatikik]

So I think steady aim's power level might have been drastically increased due to how dots work right now. Put a bunch of dots on a target then hit steady aim. Now those dots have a 50% increase on chance to crit or am I just wrong on this?

The damage increase is coutneracted by how often they get dodged now. Plus you can't really do **** for 6 seconds if your strat is to apply 2 dots and hope the crit kills someone.

[Panzerkasper]

Spoiler:

Ok, I will tell you. No!

The last thing order, and especially SW, needs is another crit buff. Multiple Crit tactics, crit buffs via spells and Ini debuffs. To even discuss about more buffs for the SW is an infamy.
The only proper crit counter destro has is the BG, until this hasnt changed there should be no more crit buffs for order.

1) Steady Aim changes to increase your chance to critically hit and be critically hit by 25/50% for 6 Seconds on a 30/60 second cooldown. This is my preferred change because it gives equal risk/reward to the SW and rewards good play by the SW if they use it under safer circumstances to mitigate the risk.

Where is the risk in that? Order kiting capability is insanely good and SWs defense skills are also more then enough.

1) Crit stacking is Order's version of Destro's Morale Pumping imo; two different ways to bring massive damage out.

2) The risk? Its LITERALLY the same for the SW as is the pay off... A SH will kill me as fast as I can kill it, Magus is close (though with DoT changes not as close), and now the Sorc WILL crit me every time and kill me faster. Theres the counter play. Unless you're trying to balance around a RDPS free casting on a mdps/healer that are just completely ignoring the threat then yea, there is not risk at all to the SW.

1) It is, but you forget that destro morale pump has been seriously nerfed , you can't throw morales every minute anymore. Chosen can pump out a morale 4 every 3 minutes if you are lucky. On the other hand crit stacking is a perma status and can be adjusted from target to target in seconds.

2) As a rdps you stand in the background (you should at least) and so you have it pretty easy running out of range of an enemy rdps. There are tanks with hold the line, aoe snares on every tank, SW selfpunt with a 10sec snare etc etc. And hey! you have a detaunt and you can stance switch into assault for ez armor bonus.

Also melee SW is totally op atm and the last thing i wanna see is another crit buff on him.

[Ugle]

Spoiler:

Ok, I will tell you. No!

The last thing order, and especially SW, needs is another crit buff. Multiple Crit tactics, crit buffs via spells and Ini debuffs. To even discuss about more buffs for the SW is an infamy.
The only proper crit counter destro has is the BG, until this hasnt changed there should be no more crit buffs for order.



Where is the risk in that? Order kiting capability is insanely good and SWs defense skills are also more then enough.

1) Crit stacking is Order's version of Destro's Morale Pumping imo; two different ways to bring massive damage out.

2) The risk? Its LITERALLY the same for the SW as is the pay off... A SH will kill me as fast as I can kill it, Magus is close (though with DoT changes not as close), and now the Sorc WILL crit me every time and kill me faster. Theres the counter play. Unless you're trying to balance around a RDPS free casting on a mdps/healer that are just completely ignoring the threat then yea, there is not risk at all to the SW.

1) It is, but you forget that destro morale pump has been seriously nerfed , you can't throw morales every minute anymore. Chosen can pump out a morale 4 every 3 minutes if you are lucky. On the other hand crit stacking is a perma status and can be adjusted from target to target in seconds.

2) As a rdps you stand in the background (you should at least) and so you have it pretty easy running out of range of an enemy rdps. There are tanks with hold the line, aoe snares on every tank, SW selfpunt with a 10sec snare etc etc. And hey! you have a detaunt and you can stance switch into assault for ez armor bonus.

Also melee SW is totally op atm and the last thing i wanna see is another crit buff on him.

I reckon you have and play a sw?

[Panzerkasper]

Spoiler:

1) Crit stacking is Order's version of Destro's Morale Pumping imo; two different ways to bring massive damage out.

2) The risk? Its LITERALLY the same for the SW as is the pay off... A SH will kill me as fast as I can kill it, Magus is close (though with DoT changes not as close), and now the Sorc WILL crit me every time and kill me faster. Theres the counter play. Unless you're trying to balance around a RDPS free casting on a mdps/healer that are just completely ignoring the threat then yea, there is not risk at all to the SW.

1) It is, but you forget that destro morale pump has been seriously nerfed , you can't throw morales every minute anymore. Chosen can pump out a morale 4 every 3 minutes if you are lucky. On the other hand crit stacking is a perma status and can be adjusted from target to target in seconds.

2) As a rdps you stand in the background (you should at least) and so you have it pretty easy running out of range of an enemy rdps. There are tanks with hold the line, aoe snares on every tank, SW selfpunt with a 10sec snare etc etc. And hey! you have a detaunt and you can stance switch into assault for ez armor bonus.

Also melee SW is totally op atm and the last thing i wanna see is another crit buff on him.

I reckon you have and play a sw?

My arguementation doesnt require me to play one, because crit stacking is a general issue.

[footpatrol2]

Spoiler:

Well dot up, Long cast somethin like Fester, mid flight of fester pop steady aim.

Or Fester arrow + Glass arrow mid flight pop steady aim.

No more Pre-calculated dots is a Big change.

If this thread is written from the perspective of how things USED to be then I think it is invalid. If this thread is written from the perspective of how it is RIGHT NOW ok valid. But do we even have enough experience with the new damage system to start incorporating balance changes?

Debuff's/Buff's taking immediate effect on damage is something new for this server. A community perception is built up on abilities/tactic's/everything based on the old system. Arguments coming from the community will be coming based on the old system which is completely invalid now. This new change is dramatic. I kinda think a month or two of waiting on all balance changes should be in place before any real balance changes are discussed. This allows the community to adjust to the new "no more precaclulated dots" and all the tricks that are within that change.

I'm not really saying that steady aim shouldn't be looked at, and need adjustment. I'm saying that this is the wrong timing for new balance discussions because the community needs to adapt. In addition, ALL the changes made previously probably need to be re-looked at because some of those arguements are now invalid due to precalculated dot's not existing anymore.

It has only been 13 days since precalculated dot's don't exist anymore... which kinda mean's any experience which existed over 13 day's don't mean nothing anymore. You only have 13 days of valid experience, not no year or two now. We are all in this boat.

Proposal's made 13 days ago are invalid due to the change.
Proposal's that were implemented now have to be re-looked at or should.

I decide which proposals need to be re-looked at.