Return of Reckoning

I agree with Esper's points but would like to refine the part about dps heals a bit, if I could. Some dps (dok in particular) builds really do NOT put out heals that are of any substance (or they're set up to really only heal themselves effectively) and let's be honest, the only time you're going to ask a dps healer to heal is when you're in the weeds and at that point their weaker heals won't actually help that much. As a main healer I actually prefer to see dps healers assist me only with rezzing, cleansing, and shielding. I prefer they save what heals they do have for keeping themselves up, which in turn allows me to focus on them less so that I can focus on those psychopath mdps that are running into the **** with out their guard :p

It IS super frustrating the number of dps healers that won't bother to help with rezzing, this is a big problem because only sham/AM have a quick rez while the rest of us have to stop healing for several seconds just to raise one person. That's hard on your group. I would ask all dps healers, if nothing else, please toss rezzes to help your main heals out.

Lancez wrote:I think there is good information here about class synergy and dynamics, but it also sort of comes off as a "do as I say" sort of post. For instance nothing about RoR is "my job", it's a hobby and I can play however I want, my class does not dictate that nor does your opinion.

Otherwise I think there is some valuable information here about archetypes and interactions and how to maximize them.

Nah, Esper is one of the nicest, least bossy people I've had the pleasure of playing along side of here. I would definitely NOT take his op as "do as i say", think of it as a public service announcement

Aurandilaz wrote:I think a vast majority of our playerbase are veterans from live and know exactly how their classes function and how to get the most out of them.
Most of us just don't care to "push it to the limit".

I would like to agrue this a bit. "Dont care to push it to the limit" is not equal to "playing bad". While the op post maybe seems basic its actually very important to remeber it. I've met countless tanks who did not use guard even after asking them. Healers who do no heals but do puny damage. Dps-ers who run like lemmings into the fray alone and die again and again.

When I first saw the post the troll in me wanted to reply: Holy wall of text! tldr
But I read it and now I think players should make a quiz every 10th level from 1-40 based on these informations to be able to play.
Just to remind how to do it.

Esperflame wrote: The absolute most important job of a tank is to "Guard" ......Guard is the most important key ability as a tank which is why its given so early at level 10. Even without healers in a Scenario, you should be guarding someone. It's that vital! If you don't like guarding anyone, you should really reconsider playing a tank. ......Failing to guard allies causes problems not only for those you fail to guard, but also your back line.

Marsares wrote: Because most people are casual PUGs who don't play as a chain, but instead log in solo for a few hours here and there.

I would argue that the majority of players know the role of their class, but just choose to ignore it as they are more casual and instead try to maximise their solo play, rather than group play.

In my opinion (and many others), these two remarks paired are ONE of the main reasons this game failed on live.

Warhammer has one of the BEST "trinity" class combat systems I have seen in a game. Where each class relies heavily on other classes. I love this. I hate games where "everyone does everything". However there is 1 fundamental problem this game has, and will continue to suffer. Guard.

Guard is a very selfless thing. Its range is very short, its not intuitive (unless you DL addons or enable them, which most new players wont know) and ontop of that, it takes active management. 1 improvement COULD be to make it so when you swap guard you dont have to press the button twice, you merely activate it on a new person - this would make it easier to use. At the end of the day WAR's combat was built around Guard and its one of the LEAST PUG friendly abilities in this game. This has been discussed and isnt possible, but having a "guarded damage" meter in SCs would GREATLY improve how many tanks guard. Because you have DPS players who brag "look at my damage, or look at my death blows" then healers can say "look at my awesome healing". Tanks get no love.

Which this LEADS to DPS not getting guarded. Which then leads to those DPS players rolling tanks and going "damage" spec because atleast they can survive for more than 2 seconds without needing guard.

All this is because of guard. rework guard and you rework the game to make doing your "job" more enjoyable for EVERYONE.

Healers are somewhat the same. Because everyone rolls DPS tanks, healers get sick of healing low DPS players and them never killing so they want to try their hand at DPS. Its a vicious cycle.


If it were up to me. I would rework Guard so that it is an "aura" 30 feet wide you cast 1x and its always on and you will intercept 50% of any damage meant for any ally in your party within 30 feet of you. Now, merely doing just that would make all tanks get nuked, so you would need to do something such as "the 50% damage you take is further reduced by defensive stats like toughness" Or, potentially you would truly "intercept" half the damage so half the damage that was meant for the guard-ee goes directly to you - so the damage is based on your defensive stats, rather than theirs and then you eat 50%. The only issue would be AoE because if something hits all your allies for 2k and you eat 50% of ALL that, itll wreck your HP in 1 second, so there would need to be some adjustment of that... potentially your block/disrupt rate being used or something rather than theirs. Stuff like that.

Something like that. If you think about it, this actually would force more tanks to spec more defensively and tanks would frankly be much more fun (imo) as guard would be always on. If you want to "swap guard" merely have that person run to you or you tun to them, thats it.

Right now, "guard" falls 100% on the tank swapping and getting in range. It should be a mutual "responsibility" where "if you want guard, run to me" type of thing.

Other newer games have figured this out and BTW and made many of the newer "tank" abilities much more fun. Right off the top of my head I can think of Overwatch's tanks such as Reinhardt throws a big shield out and its YOUR job to get behind it, not necessarily his job to run over to you. Or Neverwinter had a "guard" mechanic that is called Knights Valor that was basically AoE Guard as long as your within LOS... So literally 100feet away+ and for the entire party, it was kinda OP... But point being....

What STARTS this entire thing of classes NOT playing their role is what Marsares said. Most people log in for 1-2 hours casually, DONT want to always try and form a premade and get coms and stuff. People just want to have fun.

So either ROR will remain a very niche game designed for "LIVE" players to come back and re-live moments from LIVE.. OR..
It will be its own project/game in which some of the mechanics should be reworked IMO to be SLIGHTLY more up to date and fun... Guard being the foundation of that.

Fix Guard, make it more "PUG" friendly, while still retaining its "skill ceiling" in Premades and you will fix the issue of all he Tanks playing DPS, DPS building tanky and less DPS-y and healers DPSing. Because NOW, DPS can actually play the class they want (DPS) without begging for Guard, Tanks who love to guard will do it, and healers will have DPS to heal who can actually kill stuff.

See how its all based around guard? Guard is one of the culprits of why this game died and ROR doesnt have the population it COULD... As I said, itll either stay a niche game, or it will realize this fact and make some changes for the sake of the game.

I once PMd Magicthighs and asked him the target demographic of the game. Who is it catering to. What is the goal of the project. I never got a response....

If that answer is niche game for "LIVE" guys or anyone who wants to play "hardcore" PVP. Then great. This is your game. Look no further. But dont get mad when population is low because many players dont always want "hardcore PVP" and the mechanics in this game are built around that.

I've been trying to teach pugs how to not hit tanks, and teach them what their class is made for... I usually get told to go get f*cked. My response is to not heal them, guard them or help them in any sense.

Crassus wrote:I've been trying to teach pugs how to not hit tanks, and teach them what their class is made for... I usually get told to go get f*cked. My response is to not heal them, guard them or help them in any sense.

Iam very sorry for that But you will never can Teach ppl that wanna Make his Own Thing to play more grp friendly! But not heal tham or guard tham Ot Support tham would be the wrong way! Than they will never play better

Daknallbomb wrote:

Crassus wrote:I've been trying to teach pugs how to not hit tanks, and teach them what their class is made for... I usually get told to go get f*cked. My response is to not heal them, guard them or help them in any sense.

Iam very sorry for that But you will never can Teach ppl that wanna Make his Own Thing to play more grp friendly! But not heal tham or guard tham Ot Support tham would be the wrong way! Than they will never play better

The way I see it, is that it's like a spoiled child. If they don't want to play as a team, and want to keep whining when they don't get what they want.. Either they just keep whining or they go back to RVR where they should be in the first place if they want to solo. /ignore is wonderful for when you don't want to deal with people in a negative attitude.

Crassus wrote:

Daknallbomb wrote:

Crassus wrote:I've been trying to teach pugs how to not hit tanks, and teach them what their class is made for... I usually get told to go get f*cked. My response is to not heal them, guard them or help them in any sense.

Iam very sorry for that But you will never can Teach ppl that wanna Make his Own Thing to play more grp friendly! But not heal tham or guard tham Ot Support tham would be the wrong way! Than they will never play better

The way I see it, is that it's like a spoiled child. If they don't want to play as a team, and want to keep whining when they don't get what they want.. Either they just keep whining or they go back to RVR where they should be in the first place if they want to solo. /ignore is wonderful for when you don't want to deal with people in a negative attitude.

I have The Philosophie that If you dont ignore that ppl you mayb have a chance that one from ten ppl will try IT out
I have good moments As leader from pug wbs mostly they rly Listen and follow me up 80% of the players inside. Mostly they Just have to See how effektiv it can be When you work together

Daknallbomb wrote:

Crassus wrote:

Daknallbomb wrote:

Iam very sorry for that But you will never can Teach ppl that wanna Make his Own Thing to play more grp friendly! But not heal tham or guard tham Ot Support tham would be the wrong way! Than they will never play better

The way I see it, is that it's like a spoiled child. If they don't want to play as a team, and want to keep whining when they don't get what they want.. Either they just keep whining or they go back to RVR where they should be in the first place if they want to solo. /ignore is wonderful for when you don't want to deal with people in a negative attitude.

I have The Philosophie that If you dont ignore that ppl you mayb have a chance that one from ten ppl will try IT out
I have good moments As leader from pug wbs mostly they rly Listen and follow me up 80% of the players inside. Mostly they Just have to See how effektiv it can be When you work together

The difference though is Warbands vs Scenarios.

In WBs Order does fantastic because ZEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERG, same as destro when it comes their time.

My main issue is people that don't quite understand how a Scenario works. Which is why I take the path I said.

Well sc are a difffrent thingy.... Ppl play for score Board or Just for kills or what ever and nit often good objektiv play. The only Chance is that youre Enemy do The Same **** than its even! If not you will loose like hell