My take on the crit/armor set changes

[Daknallbomb]

But IT before Patch destru dont hat access to that. So the diffrent is Same like IT was?

[katroulitsa]

But IT before Patch destru dont hat access to that. So the diffrent is Same like IT was?

Yep. Thread isnt about order tactics though, it was more a response to your idea of "balanced classes".

[Daknallbomb]

But IT before Patch destru dont hat access to that. So the diffrent is Same like IT was? As example : before Patch a des toon had 20% a oder 30 % and now des 17 and order 27? Just an example numbers are not real. So order has still the Same ammount more crit than before or iam wrong? Edit sry 4 Double Post not easy from smart Phone

[Azarael]

All this reads is "I got my low hanging fruit which was more desirable than the 5th piece bonus (which is clearly against design intent) and I liked being able to grab it way too early".

Simple fact is if the 5th set bonus is so good its forcing you be locked in and your precious "variety" is effected then its a clear illustration that something is fundamentally wrong with it and needs further work in order to bring the benefit and attraction of certain stats back down to that of the other stats.

Moving the crit bonus to 5 pieces lowers crit by 2-3% on most classes and RRs because they can't use that last influence/ruin piece of gear and don't get a new specialization ability from the former 5-piece (now 4-piece) bonus. Add in the weapon changes and most classes lose another 2-3%. That's a pretty significant change. All this does is buff classes which already have access to high crit and/or don't rely on crit for damage. BW/Sorc/SW/SH, (AMs/Shamans too, yay!) Slayers, Order in general (leading shots + dirty tricks). Again, it's not a huge change, but it's a significant and not really productive one.

Except it doesn't, and there's a very simple reason why it doesn't: every class that scales well with crit, either through critical damage tactics or through tactics which proc on critical hits, loses more if crit is reduced. BW/Sorc in particular lose the most from every reduction in crit when relative DPS is compared, because their mechanic scales it the highest. Yes, you can talk about how they have high crit and high access to crit. Guess what? They, and other crit-scaler classes, still do relatively more DPS with whatever extra crit they have on top of the crit from things like LS / DT.

Let's also not lose sight of something: 6% crit is 3% DPS on classes without critical damage tactics. Three percent, and with a corresponding reduction in power for healers. I love how people become so keenly aware of the implications on game balance of dealing with power creep, down to the last percentage, only when it's hitting their power level - yet in other threads we have people clamouring for the next power creeping set of gear.

It's also a part of a series of changes which seem to be made in the vein of 'Duuude, wouldn't it be cool if X' without enough thought given to how it will affect the game as a whole. Obvious examples include Engi/Magus range and keep sieges, as well as keep lords killing the NA timezone, discussions about removing armor potions from the game entirely, etc.

Keep lord killing the NA timezone: Granted. Not my initiative, buck passed, resolved with current implementation, etc.

Engi/Magus range at keep sieges: Nope, I knew full well what would happen at keep sieges under old mechanics. I just didn't care, because it wasn't going to matter as soon as the new mechanics were implemented. My God am I tired of hearing that.

If you meant Engi/Magus range and keep sieges separately? Yeah I don't have much time for that either. If you think designers pull perfect first implementations out of their rear ends, then I'm terribly sorry, but it doesn't happen. This is the real world, and in the real world you need to experiment and refine with anything before you get something remotely usable - so I don't apologise for Engi/Magus range or keep sieges, not one bit. Hell, the Engineer/Magus range was locked under something that was literally called Experimental Mode.

I know it's a classic tactic to try to dismiss an implementation of any concept that didn't originally exist in the game as someone saying "duuude, wouldn't it be cool if X" without thinking about it, but let me assure you: I think about things. The difference between me and someone with your viewpoint is that I don't fear, or care about, negative interim states which may be required to deal with a larger problem that will otherwise never be dealt with because people are blocking based on short-term fears. Armor potions and other item mask abilities as well as crit inflation are both examples of that, and yes, if item abilities are interfering with the viability of class abilities, it's going to be dealt with somehow, even if that causes short-term pain. Please get used to this idea now.

[Daknallbomb]

All this reads is "I got my low hanging fruit which was more desirable than the 5th piece bonus (which is clearly against design intent) and I liked being able to grab it way too early".

Simple fact is if the 5th set bonus is so good its forcing you be locked in and your precious "variety" is effected then its a clear illustration that something is fundamentally wrong with it and needs further work in order to bring the benefit and attraction of certain stats back down to that of the other stats.

Moving the crit bonus to 5 pieces lowers crit by 2-3% on most classes and RRs because they can't use that last influence/ruin piece of gear and don't get a new specialization ability from the former 5-piece (now 4-piece) bonus. Add in the weapon changes and most classes lose another 2-3%. That's a pretty significant change. All this does is buff classes which already have access to high crit and/or don't rely on crit for damage. BW/Sorc/SW/SH, (AMs/Shamans too, yay!) Slayers, Order in general (leading shots + dirty tricks). Again, it's not a huge change, but it's a significant and not really productive one.

Except it doesn't, and there's a very simple reason why it doesn't: every class that scales well with crit, either through critical damage tactics or through tactics which proc on critical hits, loses more if crit is reduced. BW/Sorc in particular lose the most from every reduction in crit when relative DPS is compared, because their mechanic scales it the highest. Yes, you can talk about how they have high crit and high access to crit. Guess what? They, and other crit-scaler classes, still do relatively more DPS with whatever extra crit they have on top of the crit from things like LS / DT.

Let's also not lose sight of something: 6% crit is 3% DPS on classes without critical damage tactics. Three percent, and with a corresponding reduction in power for healers. I love how people become so keenly aware of the implications on game balance of dealing with power creep, down to the last percentage, only when it's hitting their power level - yet in other threads we have people clamouring for the next power creeping set of gear.

It's also a part of a series of changes which seem to be made in the vein of 'Duuude, wouldn't it be cool if X' without enough thought given to how it will affect the game as a whole. Obvious examples include Engi/Magus range and keep sieges, as well as keep lords killing the NA timezone, discussions about removing armor potions from the game entirely, etc.

Keep lord killing the NA timezone: Granted. Not my initiative, buck passed, resolved with current implementation, etc.

Engi/Magus range at keep sieges: Nope, I knew full well what would happen at keep sieges under old mechanics. I just didn't care, because it wasn't going to matter as soon as the new mechanics were implemented. My God am I tired of hearing that.

If you meant Engi/Magus range and keep sieges separately? Yeah I don't have much time for that either. If you think designers pull perfect first implementations out of their rear ends, then I'm terribly sorry, but it doesn't happen. This is the real world, and in the real world you need to experiment and refine with anything before you get something remotely usable - so I don't apologise for Engi/Magus range or keep sieges, not one bit. Hell, the Engineer/Magus range was locked under something that was literally called Experimental Mode.

I know it's a classic tactic to try to dismiss an implementation of any concept that didn't originally exist in the game as someone saying "duuude, wouldn't it be cool if X" without thinking about it, but let me assure you: I think about things. The difference between me and someone with your viewpoint is that I don't fear, or care about, negative interim states which may be required to deal with a larger problem that will otherwise never be dealt with because people are blocking based on short-term fears. Armor potions and other item mask abilities as well as crit inflation are both examples of that, and yes, if item abilities are interfering with the viability of class abilities, it's going to be dealt with somehow, even if that causes short-term pain. Please get used to this idea now.

ah now i undertand, dont thought about crit procs.. Hmm very right way aza Thumb up.

[dur3al]

I agree with OP and also just want to copy my suggestion from the patch notes to here:

I see where this change is coming from, but +1 in a tree as you said, its arguable helping you in build diversity, perhaps it'll be very good for rr60+ players, but not for most players.

As I mentioned, changing the bonus from 5% to 3% you are essentially keeping the same amount of crit with 1 extra INF reward that we have now? So I'm basically saying to keep the crit you guys want now (overall less 5% crit) while opening a slot for the 5th piece, and for the rr60+ players they'll probably go for full set to make use of that +1.
I don't understand why this change would not go along with your view on the issue, and making people work for INF rewards also puts back the effort in oRvR no? Currently as it is, I can simply do scenarios 100% of the time and get all the gear I possibly need, isn't pushing people to do both scenarios & oRvR a good thing? Shouldn't be fighting to reach a reward level 3 in a pairing zone rewarding?

And, regarding this:

On another note you have a tendency to respond to any negative feedback about your personal contributions to the project--even the most well-thought-out, legitimate and constructive feedback--by lashing out and calling people whiners. That's an unfortunate and unproductive attitude for anyone, particularly someone who works on such an open community project.

I've also noticed it too, its becoming quite sad to be fair. Every single good constructive reply or post is being replied by "stop whining waawaaa", roles are shifting here. Players who clearly play their classes for years+ who are sharing valuable insight on the changes, are being ignored by, seems to me that some a partial that have not played certain classes to the extend of some players, maybe not even the game itself, are simply disregarding the feedback as whining because they are either not understanding their remarks, or are purposely ignoring it. I guess either it's wanted of want us only to whine instead of making constructive feedback conversations? Truly disheartening when the game is Alpha and can only survive based on good feedback.

[arnagob]

Am i the only one who like this crit reduc ?

[ballnazor]

All this reads is "I got my low hanging fruit which was more desirable than the 5th piece bonus (which is clearly against design intent) and I liked being able to grab it way too early".

Simple fact is if the 5th set bonus is so good its forcing you be locked in and your precious "variety" is effected then its a clear illustration that something is fundamentally wrong with it and needs further work in order to bring the benefit and attraction of certain stats back down to that of the other stats.

Yeah ofc, I deffo want more playstyles and gear combinations being viable, but the current update limits some classes to running certain sets instead of opening up more playstyles. Changes like the recent class specific ones (mara 4 example) made certain paths more viable and the set points more valuable. The classes where only 1 path is viable thusly change little in the positive direction

[Morf]

Am i the only one who like this crit reduc ?

Nah, im sure there are countless other players who main a kotbs or always group with a kotbs that slots dirty tricks who couldnt careless

[bloodi]

You guys know that they nerfed Kotbs and currently you can get the same crit a kobts gives on destru with a BG right?