[Implementation Feedback] Morale Gain

[ACrispyTaco]

Spoiler:

I have only played this server for 1 month. If what I have to say matters at all: Please leave the game as close to Live as you possibly can. I only play this server because it's suppose to be like live was (as best as possible anyway) If it were to become a custom server it wouldn't be the same experience, and that experience is the only reason I'm here in the first place. Not saying your ideas are bad, but ya... just my 2 cents *don't 'it me boss*

Please read the rules of the balance forum. Topics here are for discussion of the subject, not about procedure or unrelated opinions - Azarael

[Bozzax]

Please restore as best as we know the old morale gain rates. The overall balance of the game is subject to having the correct morale gain rates. Having the Correct Morale gain rate is a extremely fundamental part of this game. Its up there with having the correct AP regen rate. It is fundamental.

We've tested another morale gain then live for almost 2 years and nothing scary happened with proves you are wrong.

Having had a lower rate then live for a long time also has shown that abilities - morale balance actually is in better shape than it ever was on live.

Morale dump is still possible but isn't a dominating play style which is a great improvement especially in ORVR.

Only thing that needs to be tweaked is to scale down tactics with the same factor as they obviously are over performing.

[roadkillrobin]

You must demonstrate why old live morale gain rates are fundamental. You can't just state it 4 times and expect to be believed.

It's fundamental to extrenal ballance coz abillties, tactics and morales are mirrored like that. For example we see a Shaman Morale 3 being mirrored on a Archmage tactic for AoE AP drain. So what happens when morale rates arn't correct is that those mirrors doesn't sync up with the effectiveness and accessibilly these morales are supose to have. So it just takes a big toll on the overall ballance if these vallues arn't correct. Especially as it's SO obvius that one realm are designed to have better morale rates. And the other one is desiged to have better stactic combat and if that realm (order) have to much time to stay in static combat without being in risk of getting moraled it's just unballanced. Nerfing the morale gain tactics will just increase the time that realm have to aply static combat preasure in comparrison to what they do now and that is gonna get ressault a hughly unballanced game. Best option is to increase static base morale gain and leave the tactics as they are.

Another example would be if the AP regeneration were to be at 1/3 of were is now. The classes with AP regenration abillties/tactics would overperform due to the to low base regeneration. But if AP generarion is 300% those tactics and abillties becomes useless. Thats why it needs it correct vallue. Not more, not less.

If every class and realm design were 100% mirrors this wouldn't be an iassue. As it affects both sides the same. But we got neither 100% mirrors or 100% realm so.

[Azarael]

Except as Bozzax pointed out, we've had 1x morale gain for a long time and the game hasn't been broken by it. It's all well and good stating that it's necessary... but it clearly isn't necessary because we're getting along just fine without it. The only fly in the ointment is morale pumping, and that can be dealt with.

Currently I lean towards reducing the effectiveness of morale pump and morale drain abilities and tactics as appropriate to fit. There's only so many times you can see Immaculate Defense being cycled on cooldown before you feel there's a problem.

[Luuca]

I prefer to see other classes or mechanics "buffed" than hit any class or tactic with a nerf.

Jaycub has been pushing this agenda for some time now in just about any thread that remotely skirts any form of balance issue and quite frankly, as a player who is on his Chosen in T4 more often than any other alts of mine, IF I get to R4 morale is normally at keep takes in ORvR wherein a group morale like this was made to protect the group from the plethora of ORDER AOE at the door.

I do not see the BO or Chosen tactics as OP in any way and consider the argument invalid for the following reason:

The Morales Jaycub is citing as "OP" are not iWin buttons. They are both merely defensive tactical moves. If a majority of Chosen were using Destined for Victory to cycle spam a coordinated 4-Chosen morale dump of a continuous 4 second spam of Shatter Faith every 60 seconds, then yes, it needs to be looked at. The fact remains that even with R4 Morale ID up every 60 seconds, and the Chosen able to obtain it, it is not all that common for a Chosen to wait to use this in SCs or even ORvR when taking BOs. It is not and it does not insta-gib the opposition. It's not game breaking. It's purely defensive.

"It's not Fair" is not a valid reason in a game without mirrored classes. It's not fair that my Chosen doesn't do the same DPS as a slayer. See.. you don;t have a morale tactic and I do. That said, you have X and Y and I don't. It's not fair doesn't play.

Balance issues are being addressed in such a way (and I agree completely with it BTW) that the development team is ADDING RANGE and DAMAGE in order to buff classes up to par with other classes. Is this really the time we want to eliminate a damage mitigation RANK 4 MORALE form the tool kit of one of the lowest damage output class playstyles - the SnB Tank? Leave it alone.

Morale gain Live vs RoR. I repeat what I have been told since day 1 on these forums. "This is NOT AoR. This is RoR" The balance chages underway are being made to RoR under the current damage mitigation and morale gain as set by the Dev team. Adjusting the morale gain now will be yet another moving part in the chaotic machine of in-game balance.

In summary, I feel this suggestion is based primarily on the "it's not fair" argument and as such, is invalid. These are not mirrored classes, this is not AoR, and with all the balance changes and testing going on with ALT specs, why throw another wrench in the works. I submit that any discussion of morale gain be tabled until we are nearer to both a balanced classes system and have worked out a balanced and playable ORvR system. Discussion about NERFING a classes tactics, in my opinion, should not take place. We should be discussing if that tactic is truly broken and if so, how do we counter it or raise up another class as the counter. In closing, the tactics in question would not matter as much, as Jaycub stated, if he too was at 3.6x morale gain in party - aka "it's not fair".

[Luuca]

There's only so many times you can see Immaculate Defense being cycled on cooldown before you feel there's a problem.

And in what situations are you seeing ID "cycled on cooldown"?

[bloodi]

Just to be clear, did you just say that having 75% damage reduction for your whole group up 1/3 of the time, is fine because it doesnt kill people?

[Azarael]

Let me correct you.

Those tactics are de facto OP because they were designed for a state in which morale gain was 36/s. DfV and YSMBD? restore about 200 morale every 3 seconds when in combat (because they're spoonfed passive Morale off their blocks and Guard), which is a gain rate of 66 morale/s and approximately triples the regeneration rate. Still outlandish but not quite so bad.

But our base rate here is 10/s. Increasing your rate from 10/s to about 76/s is a gain rate of 7x, and even if you would argue that you're not getting blocks at a steady enough rate, it falls to about 5x. A tactic that quintuples your morale regeneration is not balanced, and we can see it. Every SC I'm seeing Immaculate Defenses pop up in small scale, and it's from only one side. Any tactic that allows you to crap out 75% damage reduction for the group on a 33% uptime with 2 tanks is not going to last.

[Luuca]

Spoiler:

Let me correct you.

Those tactics are de facto OP because they were designed for a state in which morale gain was 36/s. DfV and YSMBD? restore about 200 morale every 3 seconds when in combat (because they're spoonfed passive Morale off their blocks and Guard), which is a gain rate of 66 morale/s and approximately triples the regeneration rate. Still outlandish but not quite so bad.

But our base rate here is 10/s. Increasing your rate from 10/s to about 76/s is a gain rate of 7x, and even if you would argue that you're not getting blocks at a steady enough rate, it falls to about 5x. A tactic that quintuples your morale regeneration is not balanced, and we can see it. Every SC I'm seeing Immaculate Defenses pop up in small scale, and it's from only one side. Any tactic that allows you to crap out 75% damage reduction for the group on a 33% uptime with 2 tanks is not going to last.

I guess it all depends upon where your heart and playtimes lay. I see it won't make a shred of difference what I say. Remove the tactics then. Make it "fair".

If you can't make an argument and just want to accuse me of ignoring you, don't post - you're in the Balance forum and the rules are stringent - Azarael

[roadkillrobin]

Except as Bozzax pointed out, we've had 1x morale gain for a long time and the game hasn't been broken by it. It's all well and good stating that it's necessary... but it clearly isn't necessary because we're getting along just fine without it. The only fly in the ointment is morale pumping, and that can be dealt with.

Currently I lean towards reducing the effectiveness of morale pump and morale drain abilities and tactics as appropriate to fit. There's only so many times you can see Immaculate Defense being cycled on cooldown before you feel there's a problem.

We have played with rank 40 morales and morale pumping tactics for no more theen a couple months.
Seriursly if you nerf these tactics you need to make a complete overhaul of everything order have that destro don't aswell. You can't just blanket nerf this. Order got so many tools that increase AP regen and Crit increase that Destro don't and that what i mean with static dmg. But i dunno you seemed to ignore this point completly....