Blackguard

[Tesq]

i know there are pressure combo for s+b i do not play full def, since i spec 1 offensive tactic in sc (which serve that purpose and the other 3 are mandatory )but it just dosen't seems a viable trade off spend 1 point first path for a skill that should be out of the mastery, then also use channeling limit even more your options, that just to lucky "pre" proc 1 tactic? And thus tacking spots of tactics that could be used otherwise?

it dosen't just seems a good trade off to me, also the fact that costing hate it's not a pro it's a contr in small scale if that's your aim.

Anyway i agree that the mid BG path need to be put in line with all other def/pve mastery of other tanks.

[Bozzax]

Anyway i agree that the mid BG path need to be put in live with al other def/pve mastery of other tanks.

Nod needing 13 specialisation points to be able to perform the basic tasks of a tank when all other tanks need 9 (or less) is the biggest problem and what is keeping BGs out of any serious setup.

It is just like .... wtf?

[Jaycub]

BG could have +100% parry tactic and Wave of Scorn as core abilities and it would still be dogshit.

Morale pump on BO/Ch make it completely obsolete. Lack of relevant debuffs not completely overshadowed by the other tanks/dps in a party as well. Long CD punt, and reliance on mechanic to get off abilities not even as strong as other classes passives etc...

[Bozzax]

I've played both Chosen and BO in competitive 6v6 long enough to know I could push for a spot with a BG that has basic tank avoidance and AOE CC within 9pts. Heck even the 2h suddenly becomes "interesting" as it unlocks 10s CD.

Gore Chosen - CA
Brytex BO - CA

I know you feel all cheese on you BO but do some math on statsteal/Skull Thumper when ppl are geared to 350 ini.

You are right some debuffs are covered by Mara but the ones that aren't are extremely potent. I don't share you obsession over morale pump even though we've clearly played with it (x2 frequently).

[footpatrol2]

The BG got the morale pump from the Dok. The design decision to take away the single target DoK morale pump I feel was a bad one. I think a different design direction would of been better then what they decided to due.

The BG was designed to have 1001 blessings with 100% upkeep in its original design (theory which I think i'm correct on). The BG was suppose to get the 1001 blessings as part of the package of the BG in a same race group. 25% more morale gain for same race group remember. You would be a little gimped in the beginning of the fight but would turn into a Monster of a tank once the 1001 blessing cycle's started which was a mean resist/armor/avoidance buff. Ya ya I'm just stating the original design right now (theory). I kinda know i'm correct on this theory thou. WAY too many things line up.

If you look at wave of scorn the duration is 10 sec's with a CD of 20 sec's. It was thought by the original dev's that you would take 2 BG's for 100% upkeep. Thats also why Crimson death has a 5 sec duration with 10 sec CD. You needed two for 100% upkeep. This game is full of stuff like this. Shatter limbs/Bad Gas/original duration of mountain spirit/original duration of 1001 blessings the list goes on and on and on. Where you have half the duration and the cooldown is twice as much. For 100% upkeep it would require 2 of the same classes in the same group for group buffs or 2 of the same classes in your overall build if it was a outgoing ability.

The spec specific morale 4's were suppose to be used a lot. Way more then what the playerbase has chosen to due. Khaine's warding for the loathing BG is Incredibly good combined with the none shall pass ability and would have been used twice every minute with 2 Loathing BG's and the 2 single target morale pump dark rites Dok's.

To get the full affect of wave of scorn you could take 2 loathing BG's. This doesn't even have to be in a 6 man. If you were running a 12 man, you could run 2 loathing BG's, one in each group and still coordinate off each other for 100% upkeep since wave of scorn is a outgoing ability.

You guys are viewing and discussing things in the context of the current meta and how things need to be forced into mixed meta without taking in the history of the changes this game has gone through. I don't think these classes were originally designed with the intent that they would be mixed.

Wouldn't it be Cool if you could actually use Khaine's warding with none shall pass ability conducted twice every minute with 2 Dok's with single target morale pumps and 2 loathing BG's. You'd have your resist buff/armor buff/avoidence buff and 2 massive heals coming from your tanks. 2 Super punts that don't require a tactic. 2 Long knockdowns. Just don't burn your mechanic.

[TenTonHammer]

I disagree on 2 counts

Firstly wave of scorn can't compete with big brawlin lower uptime and furthermore is cleansed easier than the latter

Blade of ruin is NOT a "strong" dot, it's weak/unimpressive, espically considering the fact that it requires you have parried first, look at other abilites that have a block/parry "prerequisite" requirement to use like you missed me, their effects are far more impressive than a simple dot

And if I want to trigger crit from hate I can just a mirador of bgs other abilites like toughness debuff which is on demand


Also still not addressing the elephant in the room which is marauders debuffs superseding bgs making a lot of its kit obsolete and redundant

Basic tank avoidance dosnt address that

[Jaycub]

I've played both Chosen and BO in competitive 6v6 long enough to know I could push for a spot with a BG that has basic tank avoidance and AOE CC within 9pts. Heck even the 2h suddenly becomes "interesting" as it unlocks 10s CD.

Gore Chosen - CA
Brytex BO - CA

I know you feel all cheese on you BO but do some math on statsteal/Skull Thumper when ppl are geared to 350 ini.

You are right some debuffs are covered by Mara but the ones that aren't are extremely potent. I don't share you obsession over morale pump even though we've clearly played with it (x2 frequently).

It's not just skull thumper and stat steal, you have loudmouth with can proc procs which is insane in double dok groups. You have perma aoe snare disorient and str debuff, cooldown increaser that puts any debuff BG has to shame, AP regen for group, and insane damage.

And saying morale pump is underwhelming blows my mind, 10 sec from start of fight CC+DS combo from your tanks, or how about having a clear advantage over any order comp as soon as the 40+ sec mark hits as you have bellow/ID up on CD. Classes that don't have morale pump virtually never get to m3/4 becuase morale gain on this server is extremely gimped from live.

It's also not just mara that covers BG debuffs, it's chosen/WE/CH as well. The only thing BG brings is a long KD that's not on demand, a semi powerful AP drain, and 20% crit debuff. Ch/BO both have better utility, chosen has better CC and BO has gobs more damage.

Spoiler:

I deleted my RR45 BG I honestly have no idea why I'm arguing for it anymore

[footpatrol2]

There used to be a very LARGE con to taking a marauder in a mainly DE group. Less morale gain.

You could go pure DE and gain faster morale gain and have all your racial morale's increase really fast and get you faster access to your morale 4's like 1001 blessings and Khaine's warding and other tricks I haven't listed such as morale bombs.

You would still get the tools the marauder brings but just a little less which got outweighed by the faster morale gain and having the racial morale's synergize better then having a marauder. Its apples/oranges. Do you care about morale bombs and ending the fight very fast? Apples/Oranges. DE got a little less then what Chaos could due. It adds uniqueness and flavor to the races. Not a HUGE deal considering the gains of faster morale gain.

Note: You can also force parries with the BG. If morale 4's are common place to be taken. The first 6 point abilities can be taken in your off-spec without gutting your build. Take a anguish BG with Elite training and force parries to get your Blade of Ruin out. Damage value's are whatever. Maybe Blade of ruin damage value needs to be increased but I don't think the mechanic needs to change.

As for wave of scorn being able to be cleansed well there are checks and balances in this game. It is a AE frontal snare that doesn't require a tactic to be used so it is weaker then the BO snare because of such. You can still due crazy tactic slot switches with all 4 tactic slots on the BG and still maintain that snare. To maintain the snare on the BO you HAVE to slot that tactic.

[Gobtar]

There used to be a very LARGE con to taking a marauder in a mainly DE group. Less morale gain.

Spoiler:

You could go pure DE and gain faster morale gain and have all your racial morale's increase really fast and get you faster access to your morale 4's like 1001 blessings and Khaine's warding and other tricks I haven't listed such as morale bombs.

You would still get the tools the marauder brings but just a little less which got outweighed by the faster morale gain and having the racial morale's synergize better then having a marauder. Its apples/oranges. Do you care about morale bombs and ending the fight very fast? Apples/Oranges. DE got a little less then what Chaos could due. It adds uniqueness and flavor to the races. Not a HUGE deal considering the gains of faster morale gain.

Note: You can also force parries with the BG. If morale 4's are common place to be taken. The first 6 point abilities can be taken in your off-spec without gutting your build. Take a anguish BG with Elite training and force parries to get your Blade of Ruin out. Damage value's are whatever. Maybe Blade of ruin damage value needs to be increased but I don't think the mechanic needs to change.

As for wave of scorn being able to be cleansed well there are checks and balances in this game. It is a AE frontal snare that doesn't require a tactic to be used so it is weaker then the BO snare because of such. You can still due crazy tactic slot switches with all 4 tactic slots on the BG and still maintain that snare. To maintain the snare on the BO you HAVE to slot that tactic.

Woah...hold it! The state where Marauders were even considered to be taken for a spot in the group was WAY past when racial tactics was even a thing, we are talking about years. Push your racial warband narrative someplace else please.

[Bozzax]

I disagree on 2 counts
Firstly wave of scorn can't compete with big brawlin lower uptime and furthermore is cleansed easier than the latter

Both are good and non of them imo should be spammed not even BB. Personally I like the extra range and longer duration. All I'm saying it should be at 9pts instead of 13pts on BG not that it is better.

I
Blade of ruin is NOT a "strong" dot, it's weak/unimpressive, espically considering the fact that it requires you have parried first, look at other abilites that have a block/parry "prerequisite" requirement to use like you missed me, their effects are far more impressive than a simple dot

I typically parry or block guard damage multiple times every second so 0 problem.
So is it strong? Lets compare

(IBs has a few nasties but they aren't available off the bat)

And if I want to trigger crit from hate I can just a mirador of bgs other abilites like toughness debuff which is on demand

That is possible but you will not do as much damage or burst/pressure.

Also still not addressing the elephant in the room which is marauders debuffs superseding bgs making a lot of its kit obsolete and redundant

Yes they overlap some but BGs are far from useless even if you don't use the debuffs that is already on the target or do to get protection from clns.