Order vs Destro

[peterthepan3]

In T4 you will be able to give SNB tanks a very good challenge - more than what a WL can. Only exception being a guardian armor/parry WL, which means sacrificing solo viability against other classes somewhat (while Marauder can pretty much maintain the same spec regardless of opponent)

agree to disagree, but I feel from what I have seen from maras vs WL on live/here that the mara is a much better solo class. magus are gods at soloing, that much is true!

[Penril]

I agree with Peter. The Marauder > WL in 1v1 in my opinion. An HP, Armor and inc Heal debuff in one Tree is amazing. Having a KD not on a pet is better aswell.
Beiing dependent on a pet for skills is a disadvantage if you want to time skills in situations.
Pet has low HPs aswell. Easy killable.

You need to spec for your KD (im assuming you mean Concussive Jolt and not the shitty Mutated Energy). In addition to the other debuffs you mentioned, that's a Savagery/Monstro spec (meaning no Growing Instability, no Mutated Aggressor or Guillotine). Not a spec i like, but i guess it makes sense for soloing.

Your Lion pet won't kill anyone by itself. But you can use it to harass someone while you kite, chipping away his health slowly but surely. Then when you are confident you can win, you Pounce and do your thing. WL has the same armor debuff as Mara, and a AA-haste tactic that goes very nicely with Force Opportunity. Yes, Mara has the inc-heal debuff but this one is useless in a 1v1 (unless fighting a healer, but even then, a good DPS healer should have no problem against a Mara).

WL has no problem vs Sorc. Mara faces a BW with ranged KD and a channeled snare (Sorc's snare has a 2 sec cast time).
WL has issues with SH because of RA. Mara has issues with SW due to ranged KD. Tie.
Magus and Engies are pretty strong in 1v1. Tie i guess.

Both have the edge over Choppa and Slayer. Not sure about WH/WE (so, tie?). And Mara has the edge over WL.

DPS healers don't matter, although Mara has the edge due to heal debuff.

In my own personal experience, based on several fights i had on live and in RoR, KotBS and SM stomp Maras. Not sure about IB though. As for WL, they were the toughest mdps for my BO. Not sure how they do against BG or Chosen.

Anyway.... agree to disagree. In the end they are both pretty solid classes for soloing. If one is better than the other one, the difference is probably minimal. And yeah, Mara>WL in a premade, of course.

[peterthepan3]

Think another aspect is that to play a solo WL well requires a bit more user input than a Marauder (and no, it isn't just pounceounce). Some of the best fights I had as a WL on live were against defensive SNB tanks in a defensive sov guardian parrybot spec.

[th3gatekeeper]

A simply post to comment mirror classes in terms of solo roaming and team play in all roles for class
For example:
KOTBS SnB>Chosen SnB
KOTBSdps<Chosendps
KOTBS(Solo)>Chosen(Solo)
And explain why, i open the post because i want to know yours opinions and learn about you =)
Argue your opinion and respect other opinions

I like the idea. Hopefully this doesnt turn into a flame war. I would also add a few qualifiers onto your post. Also rather than compare RIGHT NOW, I prefer to compare T4 since we will be there soon(tm)

[b]Scenarios:[/b]
KOTBS SnB > Chosen SnB. Not much contest here. Knights 20% crit + increased healing is pretty ridic in scenarios. In all truth I actually think this needs to be nerfed. Encouraged Aim needs to be bumped up the tree as does dirty tricks.

Chosen 2H > Knight 2H. I use 2h because contrary to ANY belief, a chosen/knight will NEVER be a DPS class. If you are playing one and NOT using guard, you failed. If you are playing one and using guard but stack pure STR, you failed. Now. Chosen is FAR superior to Knights in every single way here. Chosen get suppression which grants a TON of parry while knights get shield rush. Chosen get a real 2h tree that gives Rending Blade + Crip Strikes and to top it off, get 15% more crit. Knights get encouraged aim which is usually supplied by a SnB Knight. Chosen deal Spirit Damage which is another boost over Knights.

As for Solo play. I dont really know HOW to compare these two... I


RVR:
SNB Chosen > SNB Knight. Why? Destined for Victory giving M4 every minute... This is HUGE for RvR pushes/pulls. I dont think Knights can compete here although provide much better sustained contribution... In RVR its all about big moments and I think Chosen shines here.

2H Chosen > 2H Knights - same reasons as above. In fact Knights (IMO) have ZERO reason to play 2H... It makes no sense as ANYTHING you can do with a 2H you can also do with a shield, but better with a shield!


Duplicate Class: Meaning more than 1 knight in a party or more than 1 chosen.
Generally speaking I think Chosen has an advantage here. You can have 1 SNB Chosen and 1 2H chosen and they both provide their own unique benefits to the group. Where as Knights - sure can specialize in each tree, but this can also be done on Chosen. Knights dont really have any use past 1 of them in a party. Sure its not BAD to have two, but its not like you really get something with the second knight that you couldnt already have MOST of that benefit from the first knight (EA+DT as an example).

What I would LOVE to see are some adjustments to both Chosen and Knight.

I think for Knights,
-Staggering Impact needs to... well... stagger players.... and not to mention have its damage NOT as an DoT but all upfront as to be a real damager. CD reduced to 20 seconds and requires a 2H.... No longer reduces their chance to defend.
- I think that Vigilance should REQUIRE a shield.
- Mighty Soul should make ALL your attacks deal elemental damage (not just Glory tree but NOT include AA, this would stay physical) and swap places with Focused Mending. (Part of the idea here is Runefang is awesome for non Mighty Soul Knights, but Mighty Soul removes some of the benefit of Runefang making this not a clear cut choice IMO).
- Encouraged Aim - Moved up the tree to replace Efficient swings (which should then be replaced with 'Great Weapon Mastery' tactic - providing 10% more damage and 5% more parry for knights).
- Dirty Tricks - moved up to replace Laurels of Victory (which is then replaced with Efficient Swings thus Vigilance will ALWAYS reduce your outgoing damage).
- Heaven's Fury - needs to have its base damage brought up to ~150 (from 77) and now reduces enemies chance to defend by 10% for 10 seconds.

This would make Knights appealing and create true rolls as both 2H and SnB (note I DONT use DPS as explained above). Just a few ideas to bridge the gap between the two.

As for Chosen,
- Oppression needs to be bumped to 25% Inc. damage reduction.
- Embrace the Winds bumped to 25%.
- Destined for Victory changed to award 300 morale over 5 seconds after a successful block.
- Tainted Wound changed: If someone is healed while affected by Discordant Instability it hits the healer for X damage.
- Corruptive Power now reduces ALL ability cost by 20%-25% (rather than just Corruption path by 35%)


As for Auras
I have LONG contemplated this. Live sucked - having an aura button to click constantly. I think the BEST solution to auras would be to give a "build up" time on stats. Taking 'Press the Attack' as an example @ 100 STR.

Currently, when the ability is pressed, it increases your STR by 100 and decreases enemies by 100.
Proposed, Increases your STR by 10 every second while in combat. Max of *insert max # here (in this case 100).

So what this means is that initially going INTO combat, you would have no auras up. The first second you hit combat. You get 10 more STR, and every second in combat thereafer you get +10 more STR and debuff enemies by 10 STR until you reach the CAP (which is the current # - that is increased with points in the tree). This still allows auras to be passive while also requiring SOME active management. Auras would subsequently go down as fast as they go up (10/sec) once out of combat - JUST LIKE MORALE works.

[Tesq]

RVR:
SNB Chosen > SNB Knight. Why? Destined for Victory giving M4 every minute... This is HUGE for RvR pushes/pulls. I dont think Knights can compete here although provide much better sustained contribution... In RVR its all about big moments and I think Chosen shines here.

no escape moral 3 anyone? http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=kot ... 0:0:3078:0:

bo have same/better moral tactic which is why you run bo+chosen and not BG... moral 4 do not make you win push anyway... enemy can decide to kite you which is what they should do with aoe snare as sov def set do not gave snare immunity.

No escape is the ultimate killing tool 1200 damges+ undefitable root x 9 ppl+ unbreakable--> you have an anti root skill or you wipe. You need just 2 kobs well positioned to cc whole enemy wb (20 ppl) then kobs in wbs assuming you have 4 can keep cyrcle this if they push keeping melting stuff.
Chosen moral 4 need to be used at the right moment and do not make damage also dosen't guarantees that your wb will have enough damage to kill something.
kobs one is a unique moral in game which actually is the unique root to take more than 4 ppl, not only do damage but also cc enemys

[th3gatekeeper]

RVR:
SNB Chosen > SNB Knight. Why? Destined for Victory giving M4 every minute... This is HUGE for RvR pushes/pulls. I dont think Knights can compete here although provide much better sustained contribution... In RVR its all about big moments and I think Chosen shines here.

no escape moral 3 anyone? http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=kot ... 0:0:3078:0:

bo have same/better moral tactic which is why you run bo+chosen and not BG... moral 4 do not make you win push anyway... enemy can decide to kite you which is what they should do with aoe snare as sov def set do not gave snare immunity.

No escape is the ultimate killing tool 1200 damges+ undefitable root x 9 ppl+ unbreakable--> you have an anti root skill or you wipe. You need just 2 kobs well positioned to cc whole enemy wb (20 ppl) then kobs in wbs assuming you have 4 can keep cyrcle this if they push keeping melting stuff.
Chosen moral 4 need to be used at the right moment and do not make damage also dosen't guarantees that your wb will have enough damage to kill something.
kobs one is a unique moral in game which actually is the unique root to take more than 4 ppl, not only do damage but also cc enemys

Yeah its not bad, but who will have morale ready faster? DFV is crazy fast morale gain and if whatever reason you dont have M4 up, you can always M3 D.B. and reduce everyones damage in 30 feet by 50%. The morale gain on Chosen is pretty awesome with DFV. We can agree to disagree though. Knights do have good morales too, I just think in RvR Chosen has M4 up every minute and can be using M3/M4 much more frequent than kobs.

[Tesq]

the meta moral is pretty in favor of destru i belive but there are moral remove and as those exit kobs passive stuff get better and better :/

chosen may have moral 1 in 1 min but order party will have other passive buff active from the start passive buff which let you put more pressure in the initial phase of the combat assuming 2 wb face each other in open space alone. I usually had problem unless was call when to use m4, if you use it reactionaly you need anyway to wait enemy push so in the end unless is call and enemy do not kite is used basically as reaction to an enemy push/ your wb bad positioning which as i said do not make you win the battle but just prolong it longer and make you re-organize.
Defense kill no one sadly :/ but is really nice to have such impact on the battle field, lukily with out making other unable to play due an hard form of cc so i think is funnier play a chosen than a kobs.

[Bretin]

wl>mrd for soloing in the lakes...

mrd will lose against any order rdps and tank (i assume both are equally skilled). as penril said he has just the edge against mdps. but still... if they are well played all mdps do have the possibilty to win against the mrd. classes such as choppa and slayer especially slayer do have a insane 1vs1 potential.

but we are talking about soloing in the lakes where you face all classes w/o prep time, right? therefor wl has the better kit and is much more viable than mrd...

[th3gatekeeper]

the meta moral is pretty in favor of destru i belive but there are moral remove and as those exit kobs passive stuff get better and better :/

chosen may have moral 1 in 1 min but order party will have other passive buff active from the start passive buff which let you put more pressure in the initial phase of the combat assuming 2 wb face each other in open space alone. I usually had problem unless was call when to use m4, if you use it reactionaly you need anyway to wait enemy push so in the end unless is call and enemy do not kite is used basically as reaction to an enemy push/ your wb bad positioning which as i said do not make you win the battle but just prolong it longer and make you re-organize.
Defense kill no one sadly :/ but is really nice to have such impact on the battle field, lukily with out making other unable to play due an hard form of cc so i think is funnier play a chosen than a kobs.

Yeah I dont disagree. Thats why I go back to my suggestions about knights/Chosens....

Things like:
"- I think that Vigilance should REQUIRE a shield. "
" Encouraged Aim - Moved up the tree to replace Efficient swings"
"- Dirty Tricks - moved up to replace Laurels of Victory "

Those three pieces would make it much harder to provide the 20% crit. Heck, I would even be in favor of changing Dirty Tricks instead to be a morale gainer, like Chosen have... Something like "When you block, your allies within 100 feet gain 100 morale. This cannot happen more than once every 5 seconds. Something like this. It still gives massive group benefits, but doesnt provide 20% crit now...

[peterthepan3]

wl>mrd for soloing in the lakes...

mrd will lose against any order rdps and tank (i assume both are equally skilled). as penril said he has just the edge against mdps. but still... if they are well played all mdps do have the possibilty to win against the mrd. classes such as choppa and slayer especially slayer do have a insane 1vs1 potential.

but we are talking about soloing in the lakes where you face all classes w/o prep time, right? therefor wl has the better kit and is much more viable than mrd...

A good marauder will have a better chance against SNB tanks than a WL will. Marauder is a much better duelist class too.

you have so many specs you can use and tailor towards any enemy:
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=mar ... :;0:0:0:0:
basic parrybot duel spec for snb tanks. ap draining. can swap a tactic for monstrousity toughness if you feel weakish

can swap the KD for guillotine/MA