[SH] Bad Gas

[Thorondir]

A problem I foresee with this change is that you would now be able to entirely negate the melee squig just by killing the gas squig pet. This basically becomes a strippable stance with an obvious shut down counter.

Its been a while since I played a squig, does squig armour currently lock you out of ranged attacks? Also, what exactly is the problem with using squig armour, apart from the GCD and the high cast ap cost? Is it just too clunky to quick swap with the animations?

What is the benefit of using squig armour with this change? I suppose the squig armour tied abilites are still required.

Would it not just make more sense to change bad gas to work as a ranged ability off of ranged stats? This way it would work even if the gas squig gets killed.

Fundamentally, I agree that the melee tree needs work and bad gas should be made viable. I am just looking at how I would counter this and it seems like my options to shut down a melee squig are being buffed.

[Luranni]

Anything that means Bad Gas is used more often is a good change in my opinion. Shatter Limbs has ruled the roost unchallenged for too long.

[Reesh]

I've seen in RvR lately heavy increase of bad gas and it simply works.

[Penril]

A problem I foresee with this change is that you would now be able to entirely negate the melee squig just by killing the gas squig pet. This basically becomes a strippable stance with an obvious shut down counter.

Its been a while since I played a squig, does squig armour currently lock you out of ranged attacks? Also, what exactly is the problem with using squig armour, apart from the GCD and the high cast ap cost? Is it just too clunky to quick swap with the animations?

What is the benefit of using squig armour with this change? I suppose the squig armour tied abilites are still required.

Would it not just make more sense to change bad gas to work as a ranged ability off of ranged stats? This way it would work even if the gas squig gets killed.

Fundamentally, I agree that the melee tree needs work and bad gas should be made viable. I am just looking at how I would counter this and it seems like my options to shut down a melee squig are being buffed.

Yes, Squig Armor locks you out of your ranged attacks. That answers your next question i guess (what exactly is the problem with using SA). Also, if you see a ranged SH that comes close to you and uses Squig Armor you immediately know he is gonna use Bad Gas and can take your precautions (spread out for a sec, KD the SH, etc.).

The benefit of still using SA would be KABOOM and Bounce, CC skills that are unavailable out of SA.

If you just change Bad Gas to ranged it would be a nerf to melee SHs since they stack Str.

Agreed on what you said about killing the pet = shutting down melee SH.

If Bad Gas was undefendable, would it make it OP?

[Penril]

I've seen in RvR lately heavy increase of bad gas and it simply works.

Did you see it being used by SHs in Squig Armor, or out of it?

Because that is the whole point of the thread i made.

[Thorondir]

Yes, Squig Armor locks you out ofyour ranged attacks. That answers your next question i guess (what exactly is the problem with using SA).

This is fundamentally the same as assault stance - although the limitations are worse. In squig armour, you should be able to use the same mirror abilites as the SW - i.e. run and shoot, the quick shooting dots, plink etc. Also, the squig armour ap cost should be removed.

If you just change Bad Gas to ranged it would be a nerf to melee SHs since they stack Str.

Not true. All of the gear for a melee squig is still itemized with ballistics. The only loss will be from renown points. If you are building a melee squig, you are still going to be close to cap on your BS, even if you aren't trying to stack it. It is a hybrid build afterall and you never lose your ballistics from the squig armour conversion.

SW had the same problem with the old implementation of whirling (worthless) pin. It used to go off of strength and get parried unless you were behind the target or in assault stance.

Having bad gas operate off of range stats would make it function in both melee and range specs. This seems like the better fix to me, you don't even need to swap pets for it and it doesn't expose the melee build to an easy shut down option.

[Penril]

Yes, Squig Armor locks you out ofyour ranged attacks. That answers your next question i guess (what exactly is the problem with using SA).

This is fundamentally the same as assault stance - although the limitations are worse. In squig armour, you should be able to use the same mirror abilites as the SW - i.e. run and shoot, the quick shooting dots, plink etc. Also, the squig armour ap cost should be removed.

If you just change Bad Gas to ranged it would be a nerf to melee SHs since they stack Str.

Not true. All of the gear for a melee squig is still itemized with ballistics. The only loss will be from renown points. If you are building a melee squig, you are still going to be close to cap on your BS, even if you aren't trying to stack it. It is a hybrid build afterall and you never lose your ballistics from the squig armour conversion.

SW had the same problem with the old implementation of whirling (worthless) pin. It used to go off of strength and get parried unless you were behind the target or in assault stance.

Having bad gas operate off of range stats would make it function in both melee and range specs. This seems like the better fix to me, you don't even need to swap pets for it and it doesn't expose the melee build to an easy shut down option.

You can still use several ranged attacks while in Assault Stance, but none in Squig Armor.

Pretty sure Bal/Str Talismans arent converted either. But i understand what you say... Melee SHs in SA would still have more than enough Bal to pull off their Bad Gas.

Ok, i support this suggestion. Make Bad Gas work on Bal instead of Str (and therefore, be dodged instead of parried, i guess).

[Gobtar]

Moving to it's own thread as this is more of a fix for Spear based skills rather than Cross-stance skills.

[Thorondir]

Yes, Squig Armor locks you out ofyour ranged attacks. That answers your next question i guess (what exactly is the problem with using SA).

This is fundamentally the same as assault stance - although the limitations are worse. In squig armour, you should be able to use the same mirror abilites as the SW - i.e. run and shoot, the quick shooting dots, plink etc. Also, the squig armour ap cost should be removed.

If you just change Bad Gas to ranged it would be a nerf to melee SHs since they stack Str.

Not true. All of the gear for a melee squig is still itemized with ballistics. The only loss will be from renown points. If you are building a melee squig, you are still going to be close to cap on your BS, even if you aren't trying to stack it. It is a hybrid build afterall and you never lose your ballistics from the squig armour conversion.

SW had the same problem with the old implementation of whirling (worthless) pin. It used to go off of strength and get parried unless you were behind the target or in assault stance.

Having bad gas operate off of range stats would make it function in both melee and range specs. This seems like the better fix to me, you don't even need to swap pets for it and it doesn't expose the melee build to an easy shut down option.

You can still use several ranged attacks while in Assault Stance, but none in Squig Armor.

Pretty sure Bal/Str Talismans arent converted either. But i understand what you say... Melee SHs in SA would still have more than enough Bal to pull off their Bad Gas.

Ok, i support this suggestion. Make Bad Gas work on Bal instead of Str (and therefore, be dodged instead of parried, i guess).

Bal talismans are converted to Str in assault stance. If this is not how squig armour works, that is a problem. The only things that are not converted are renown point stats and stat buffs i.e. pots.

I think the squig armour issues are a seperate problem that should be addressed though.

The only downside to making bad gas defended by dodge instead of parry is the usual defence trade-off - no dodge bypass from behind but typically lower dodge stats (i.e. no dual wield bonus or WS contribution).

[Penril]

Bal talismans are converted to Str in assault stance. If this is not how squig armour works, that is a problem. The only things that are not converted are renown point stats and stat buffs i.e. pots.

I think the squig armour issues are a seperate problem that should be addressed though.

The only downside to making bad gas defended by dodge instead of parry is the usual defence trade-off - no dodge bypass from behind but typically lower dodge stats (i.e. no dual wield bonus or WS contribution).

I admit you are making me doubt myself now about the Talisman conversion. K, i believe you. Not that it mattes anyway, because as you said, SH and SW still have more than enough Bal after using SA/Assault Stance.