Patchnotes 15/12/16

[saupreusse]

patience guys, patience

hopefully this game will be around for YEARS, dont get dispaired cause the changes pause for some weeks ^^

My point of view, the time is working against you hardly.
You lost players the last months and i think some development went the wrong way or not the right priority.
If i see the classbalance between order and destro i really ask myself why not play order because chars are mostly stronger there(anyone who wanna flame can have a log at abilities and save his words for fine arguments).

I see many changes in rvr and it feels like you focus so hardly prior to rvr instead of some other things who need it more.
I dont know your way or status regarding xrealm but in easy words, this fecking me up really hard because so many times you fight hours for hours for hours for nearly nothing.
For a loose after a long fighting time.

I dont have problems with a game that is in development and bugs must be solved and other things created but one thing is very important for myself, they priority to what in games needs mostly solved, fixed etc.

The first Year in Warhammer as it was life was crueful, it was a pain with this worst try to balance, with the performance.

Yes, i dont want to make your work bad because some only do what them told(i assume).

As i started this alpha i was happy to see warhammer again, no i really think to delete it and have a look in some months ir til other games are out.
I am sorry for that because i really would play the game but a part of com destroys the game with xrealm.
I really get sad if i see my chars, the ability and the other from order.

I dont know if you have solutions, terms to solve this or work this.
I would really love it to see warhammer became a fine game with good balance, many players, fun and good fights in rvr but it feels so far away....

I can sum up all of this in one word: alpha. (i know you know it but i still say it)
and you feel like we focus on the wrong stuff like rvr? hows that? should we focus on pve first because war was known for its awesome dungeons and pve raids? anyway, you can read up a lot of stuff about xrealming by searching for it on the forum. Also that you fight "for hours and hours for nearly nothing" is a rvr problem, isnt it? So should we focus on rvr or not?- would be nice if you could explain.

[Tiggo]

you assume this is a professionel team of fulltime coders with a company structure/hierarchy etc. Obviously this is not the case, you demand to much from this spare time team, really.

And this team has come a LONG way already in regards of working together, decision making, structure etc. And yes i think its THEIR entitlement to do any changes THEY want with the game and whenever they consider you, the testers (you are not a customer!) is a BONUS.

Player count decreases or increases for so many reasons, it makes no sense to base decisions around those figures anyway.

[zumos2]

It was just interesting to see how much upheaval these changes caused. Not only in the community but also in regards how to play.

Ye very nice how half of the top small scale guilds have been leaving because of those changes ...

You know 'Top guilds unable to handle change' would make a nice headline.

Looking back the only thing I'm not sure about was the forced experimental. The core tester had plenty of time getting used to the new concept. Having it forced on everyone else after just two days was not a particularly good move IMO. Not sure if the benefit of not having 'mixed' states outweighed to amount of whining that followed.

Most likely not unable, but not wanting to change all the time. Part of that is that people just want to play how it was. And sure you can do some balance changes, mostly playing with numbers. But when you start changing the game in a much more rigorous ways, you will piss people off. Even if the changes are good changes. I myself am very strongly against range increase on the engie/magus because I believe rdps should have 100 ft range max. AoE heals max 100 and ST heals max 150. Is something like that big enough to make me quit? No.

In general I would suggest to not mess with what works, but only with what doesnt. A good example is the AM/Shaman mechanic. It just didnt really bring anything to the class and thus changes will be liked much more likely. I really do like the changes of those.

Now DoK/WP is a class many people enjoyed playing. And you can believe they were OP, and for large scale you would be right. But for small scale I feel like it is more an issue of the AM/Shaman being underpowered than DoK/WP being too OP. And there would have been ways to improve the AoE healing in large scale for the other 4 healers and leaving WP/DoK mostly alone.

And the argument that 8 years ago they were meant to be melee healers is something the players dont care about at all. They care a lot more of how they played it for years. Further with client access it should be possible to not change the backline playstyle but make the classes also viable to play as a melee healer. I dont think anyone minds that playstyle becoming viable, but why take something away many liked playing?

And do not say it is too easy, because it is not. Apart from the fact that the easineas of an class is no balance argument as you should balance for best play anyway, ZL/RP is by far easier healer and AM/Shaman without the experimental changes as well.

Anyway that is how a lot of people will feel and what I think about it.

[zabis]

And yes i think its THEIR entitlement to do any changes THEY want with the game and whenever they consider you, the testers (you are not a customer!) is a BONUS.

This seems like a horrible attitude to have, especially if you want to build a community

[Azarael]

Now we're getting into the tail wagging the dog.

All I read here is: thanks for all the free work you did resurrecting the game. We'll be nice to you if and when we feel like it, and you'd better be grateful for that, but you'd better not think you have any right to do what you want with the game, because it's about what we want and what we will tolerate, and our bars are set very low.

Absolutely vile. DoK/WP playing to concept is the price I ask, and I am not so much of a doormat that I will disregard all the time spent working on this project and allow that to be blocked by people who do not, in fact, work on the project, because muh nostalgia.

Really, I can't emphasise it enough. Vile. You benefit from free work. Why on earth do you think I'm going to have even the smallest of my actions constrained by traditionalism for traditionalism's sake? Get over it. I'll accept criticism for causing imbalance but I will not for one second accept being criticised simply for the act of having made a change. This project made it clear a while back that the aim is to make progress, not to allow you and yours to allow traditionalism and nostalgia to block everything you don't like.

You can save your responses as well, because I'm setting out how things are, and I'm sure as hell not interested in wasting any more of my breath against "muh nostalgia".

[roadkillrobin]

It was just interesting to see how much upheaval these changes caused. Not only in the community but also in regards how to play.

Ye very nice how half of the top small scale guilds have been leaving because of those changes ...

if someone leaves this ALPHA cause of changes ... well ... he shouldnt be here in the first place until release stage ...

They moast likly left coz a class they spent countless hours of in game time and months of progression on a class they no longer find intresting or pleasing to play. If they were truly testers in a Alpha they could just send you their feedback about the changes and test another toon they might find more apealing. But thats not the case here. Your testers are investing MASSIVE amount of time on a toon that your team might drasticly change at any time, making their time invesment possible wasted. If you had something of like a renown refund for when classes change drasticly and you may distribute it on another toon of your choise for the trade of deleing that career ofc.. Then I bet people would stick around rather then just flat out leaving the game when it changes drasticly.

[hogo2hogo]

Ye very nice how half of the top small scale guilds have been leaving because of those changes ...

if someone leaves this ALPHA cause of changes ... well ... he shouldnt be here in the first place until release stage ...

They moast likly left coz a class they spent countless hours of in game time and months of progression on a class they no longer find intresting or pleasing to play. If they were truly testers in a Alpha they could just send you their feedback about the changes and test another toon they might find more apealing. But thats not the case here. Your testers are investing MASSIVE amount of time on a toon that your team might drasticly change at any time, making their time invesment possible wasted. If you had something of like a renown refund for when classes change drasticly and you may distribute it on another toon of your choise for the trade of deleing that career ofc.. Then I bet people would stick around rather then just flat out leaving the game when it changes drasticly.

You are right about the huge time investment and the change of gameplay. BUT... there is always the chance of wipe / rollback (and the fear of it)

Additionally the time spent is a personal choice that someone makes. The project could stop tomorrow and who would be to blame then?

PS: The time and progress to a certain extent is to a best-case scenario used for development and progress.
In the worst case scenario: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs

[zumos2]

Now we're getting into the tail wagging the dog.

All I read here is: thanks for all the free work you did resurrecting the game. We'll be nice to you if and when we feel like it, and you'd better be grateful for that, but you'd better not think you have any right to do what you want with the game, because it's about what we want and what we will tolerate, and our bars are set very low.

Absolutely vile. DoK/WP playing to concept is the price I ask, and I am not so much of a doormat that I will disregard all the time spent working on this project and allow that to be blocked by people who do not, in fact, work on the project, because muh nostalgia.

Really, I can't emphasise it enough. Vile. You benefit from free work. Why on earth do you think I'm going to have even the smallest of my actions constrained by traditionalism for traditionalism's sake? Get over it. I'll accept criticism for causing imbalance but I will not for one second accept being criticised simply for the act of having made a change. This project made it clear a while back that the aim is to make progress, not to allow you and yours to allow traditionalism and nostalgia to block everything you don't like.

You can save your responses as well, because I'm setting out how things are, and I'm sure as hell not interested in wasting any more of my breath against "muh nostalgia".

Nostalgia is the exact reason people play this game. And while we appreciate your and the teams hard work, there is no way to show our appreciation other than some words. But the fact that we cannot give you any money should not be a reason you should disregard what people really liked in WAR. And it is not about the right to do A or B. You officially dont even have the right to have this project going. You do have the power to do anything you like. But what is the point of making changes people dont like? Do you resseruct this game to launch a succesfull server full of people having fun or did you resseruct it to build your dream version of WAR? And let me get this straight, you definitely should try stuff on the server and I think you have been doing that very well with the RvR system. But touching classes becomes a bit more personal and closer to people. Which brings me back to change stuff that doesnt work, but try to leave what works as much alone as possible.

[Glorian]

Testing as testers?

I was in closed beta and had to lvl my engineer up to the top.
Only at almost the end you had the chance to start with another char and a big XP boost and renown boost.

[roadkillrobin]

if someone leaves this ALPHA cause of changes ... well ... he shouldnt be here in the first place until release stage ...

They moast likly left coz a class they spent countless hours of in game time and months of progression on a class they no longer find intresting or pleasing to play. If they were truly testers in a Alpha they could just send you their feedback about the changes and test another toon they might find more apealing. But thats not the case here. Your testers are investing MASSIVE amount of time on a toon that your team might drasticly change at any time, making their time invesment possible wasted. If you had something of like a renown refund for when classes change drasticly and you may distribute it on another toon of your choise for the trade of deleing that career ofc.. Then I bet people would stick around rather then just flat out leaving the game when it changes drasticly.

You are right about the huge time investment and the change of gameplay. BUT... there is always the chance of wipe / rollback (and the fear of it)

Additionally the time spent is a personal choice that someone makes. The project could stop tomorrow and who would be to blame then?

PS: The time and progress to a certain extent is to a best-case scenario used for development and progress.
In the worst case scenario: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs

IF the project dies it dies, Then there no longer a need for people playing the game so it doesn't really nather, But aslong as there are need of player you can't really expect em to just take anything. Especially when we're talking about such vast anount of time and there's no respect for the time put into it. Then you can't expect the respeect back either, As for rollbacks. There are much smarter ways to do it without pissing people off. I'm gonna give some example.

In need of blank progression mapping: Freeze all existing accounts. Only accounts created from date-date can be played durning this time. Accounts created durning this time will be deleted after 30 days of inactivity for the next 90 days,

Just need to rollback renown: Freeze renown cap at current level. You are now rollbacked to renown 40. And won't start earning renown until you reach previus cap. You get to keep the renown earned tho.