The Destro Attitude

[Razid1987]

oRvR also sucks when certain groups log their Order accounts to watch Advice channel then feed said chat to their group...

...but that's none of my business.
I digress.

I suspected it was you on Twitch... GOTCHA!

[Razid1987]

oRvR also sucks when certain groups log their Order accounts to watch Advice channel then feed said chat to their group...

...but that's none of my business.
I digress.

I take full ownership of this. Someone in our group was doing that tonight, which I think is a douche move.

I 100% don't agree with that, quite frankly I think it take a lot of the fun and the point of oRvR out of the game. I told him to stop almost as soon as he started. That **** will never happen again.

I agree, it was foul play. Later on we forced him to play WoW for a solid 30 minutes as punishment.

Ouch! The horror!

[Luuca]

Considering the fact that you are complaining directly at the people who don't want to WB up, implies to me that you want others to play the game in your fashion.

I was not complaining. I was answering the question "Why is Destro failing in ORVR?"

I was pointing out that, when looking at the current state of ORVR, and asking for help in stemming the tide of the Order dominance, I asked for help - floated the idea - of getting 3-4 of the 6-man premade groups (LIKE ME BTW) together in the Lakes for a night or two to push back at Order in an organized and meaningful way in hopes of getting us back on track in ORVR - possibly pulling back some freenown xrealmers. Sorry if that was not clear.

What I was shocked to see was replies that displayed an attitude that ignored the fact that even the best 6-man in the history of WAR (Live or on RoR) could not mount any meaningful resistance against the far superior numbers we are experiencing. This is not a closed-cell ecosystem. If you ignore the large scale WB aspect of this game and let it die, the 6-man Orvr Roaming group is next, and then the SCs become unplayable.

It takes all types and sometimes we need to help eachother out. Sure your 6-man can capitalize on terrain to wtf pwn the large Order WB on occasion, but the average player and especially the new T2 players have no way to Orvr and our player numbers and ORVR effort was dwindling down to nothing.

Basically, was your rant intended to change the mind of those said 6 mans and unify all of destro even after we explained why we aren't down to WB up? Or was this just a general rant to spill knowledge on the forums and basically change nothing in the end at all? I'm just slightly confused as to what you are trying to accomplish here. Thanks for keeping this professional and humble.

P.S. I read your post.

I completely understand your desire to play in small scale ORVR/SCs. I prefer that game as well; however, sometimes you need to take one for the team and work to fix an issue right in front of your nose. It would be great if we could all just ignore the elephant in the room and run our 6-mans and have fun, but you must try to understand that, again, if the WB game dies, the 6-man game is next.

I honestly still don;t understand what you were trying to say in those last two sentences. I didn't bother to read the orcish speak stuff because it hurts my brain. Clearly i offended you and I apologize.

Edit: Call it a rant, complaining, or whatever you like. I gave examples of the attitude I was describing and never revealed those sources. Your guild mate chose to reveal his quote.

Also, something has changed based upon this "rant". The Devs realized that the system they put into place to stop empty keep taking simply ensured only the larger ORVR force could take empty Keeps.

What I meant with this post is that I already changed the system to open all 3 zones at once, and then reset them all once they're all locked. x_x

[Sulorie]

We fail in rvr because we have pug warbands.

[Luuca]

We fail in rvr because we have pug warbands.

I wish it were that simple.

The PuG warbands when I was leveling up were viable. They have been successful in the past. So I ask you, What's Changed?

If you think about it, factors of Zone Locks, Average Player Level, Bolstering Level, Average Renown Level, and Cross Realming have all come to a head to kill the viability of the PuG warband. But Why?

The PuG warband is forced to play in one zone, against a strong opposition force (Larger usually).

Under the Old Multiple Open Zone System, if the WB wiped on the keep, they would all respawn at the Warcamp and the WB leader would call a new target. He had several targets to choose from. Everyone basically stayed in the WB and flew to the next target. Order had no idea where they were going so the smaller force had some time to get a few ticks before the big fight happened.

Under the New One Open Zone System, if the WB wiped on the keep, they would all respawn at the Warcamp and knowing that their odds of defending or taking a keep were horrible, many players would leave the WB. The WB only has one new target to choose from and the opposition knows exactly where they will be. Even if part of the WB remains intact, now smaller than before, they go to the BOs in the next zone only to get wiped, and more players give up and go sit in the warcamp and que SCs.

So I ask you, Is the PuG warband the reason we are failing in ORVR, or is it the rule-set by which the PuG WB has to operate within that's stacking the odds against it when facing a larger, organized force? At least in the old system, they could dodge and weave to avoid the knockout blow for a while. The new system has it on the ropes with one hand tied behind it's back.

[OldPlayer]

Ordos getting a lot of rr for these pve keep flips, to say their not achieving something when a lot of them are rr40 so quickly after the raise from 30

While destro needs to grind out in scs

I've noticed well-played scenario granted about 1-3k of RR to unstoppable Destro players.
One scenario against premade usually lasts about 5-7 minutes unless premades wants to prolong it a bit and get even more renown. Capping one BO, afking there for 5 minutes and moving to the next BO is about 7-10 minutes, you get 800 RR, snoring.
Keep grants 800 RR. Zone lock grants some more.
Destro also gets tokens for scenario wins.

Probably depends on your opinion what is more fun - afking as Order or pwning as Destro in scs.

[Luuca]

Ordos getting a lot of rr for these pve keep flips, to say their not achieving something when a lot of them are rr40 so quickly after the raise from 30

While destro needs to grind out in scs

I've noticed well-played scenario granted about 1-3k of RR to unstoppable Destro players.
One scenario against premade usually lasts about 5-7 minutes unless premades wants to prolong it a bit and get even more renown. Capping one BO, afking there for 5 minutes and moving to the next BO is about 7-10 minutes, you get 800 RR, snoring.
Keep grants 800 RR. Zone lock grants some more.
Destro also gets tokens for scenario wins.

Probably depends on your opinion what is more fun - afking as Order or pwning as Destro in scs.

While getting farmed in a scenario is just as boring as freenwning BOs and Keeps, at least in the Freenown empty ORVR setting, your lower level players can actually gain, RR, INFLUENCE (for items) and XP. Our low level players depend upon the 6-man premade to win the SC with them along helping out, but that's no guarantee of a victory in an SC. Premades Lose SCs and get a smaller reward too. Lets keep this as balanced as possible... after all, "unstoppable Destro Players" die too... Ask me how I know..

[Azuzu]

I gave examples of the attitude I was describing and never revealed those sources. Your guild mate chose to reveal his quote.

Ya, I don't mind at all.

I had no interest in playing outside of the style of PvP I enjoy.

I dont agree with your suggestion that without a zerg, 6 mans would die off. DAoC had a health culture of roaming 8v8 groups, it's one of the reasons the game is still alive today. It's entirely possible for a community to come together and play a style of PvP just because it's entertaining.

I bring DAoC up because Warhammer was it's failed stepchild. The 8v8 culture never caught on here, but it would be my dream game if people got out of the SCs, left the zergs, walked away from the keep doors and got out there and roamed. A lot old DAoC players originally played Warhammer hoping that the same 8v8 style of PvP would develop here. Instead they were met by hordes of people banging on empty keeps, avoiding fights to PvDoor and keep trading. These problems drove so many DAoC fans from WAR when it first launched.

As I see it there are two problems;

One a system that rewards taking an empty keep more than killing hordes of the opposite factions.

The second problem is US, we the players make a choice to trade empty keeps. Why, because it's the fastest path to completing our goal, the best gear.

I get that your saying we need the large warbands to draw the fire from the other side. That if we organized and got together we could encourage people to fight back. That when enough people start fighting back we can go back to small scale fights.

The thing is, I don't agree with any of it in the first place. I don't want to encourage people to get out there in mass numbers and fight.

I want to do the opposite, the entire reason I'm trying to stream small group pvp is to encourage people to get into small scale 6v6 roaming. I want them to see how much fun it is to break away from the zerg. I want to show people that it's fun to roam around with friends and get into unexpected fights, to take on bigger numbers, to do silly **** or play seriously and that it's ok to lose and get run over by the zerg. I want to encourage a small scale RvR culture here on RoR the best way I know how.

[Sulorie]

We fail in rvr because we have pug warbands.

I wish it were that simple.

Spoiler:

The PuG warbands when I was leveling up were viable. They have been successful in the past. So I ask you, What's Changed?

If you think about it, factors of Zone Locks, Average Player Level, Bolstering Level, Average Renown Level, and Cross Realming have all come to a head to kill the viability of the PuG warband. But Why?

The PuG warband is forced to play in one zone, against a strong opposition force (Larger usually).

Under the Old Multiple Open Zone System, if the WB wiped on the keep, they would all respawn at the Warcamp and the WB leader would call a new target. He had several targets to choose from. Everyone basically stayed in the WB and flew to the next target. Order had no idea where they were going so the smaller force had some time to get a few ticks before the big fight happened.

Under the New One Open Zone System, if the WB wiped on the keep, they would all respawn at the Warcamp and knowing that their odds of defending or taking a keep were horrible, many players would leave the WB. The WB only has one new target to choose from and the opposition knows exactly where they will be. Even if part of the WB remains intact, now smaller than before, they go to the BOs in the next zone only to get wiped, and more players give up and go sit in the warcamp and que SCs.

So I ask you, Is the PuG warband the reason we are failing in ORVR, or is it the rule-set by which the PuG WB has to operate within that's stacking the odds against it when facing a larger, organized force? At least in the old system, they could dodge and weave to avoid the knockout blow for a while. The new system has it on the ropes with one hand tied behind it's back.

In fact it is pretty simple.
Join an open t2 warband like me yesterday and you notice several points.

1. Players with rank 6, 9, 10, 11 and higher were inside. It's bad enough that the bolster is only working up to rank 21, some of those people are not even optinal ranked for t1!
2. Warband groups with no healer, 1 or even 3 in one group. Same with tanks. Lowranks and 24+ mixed together, weakening all groups.

3. Have tanks and healers in your group? Be happy? No, as all are scattered across the zone, giving massive disadvantages in engagements.
4 working groups make a working warband, this is not happening. Cross healing is a form of support between groups in a warband, not a way to compensate for missing group healers.

4. The obvious, people joining sc, when having no success in rvr, without leaving the warband.

5. You can easily test who is reading warband chat. Yesterday 11 of 23 were able to read or notice the channel. Why a leader should give orders, when half the team can't handle chat filters or plain ignores orders?

6. Open warbands, impossible to manage as people drop in or leave all the time. Luckily it is possible to close them now.

7. People only care to reach the next BO in time before anyone caps it and ignore teammates who are attacked.

8. The zerg is playing snake instead of moving in a tight group, leaving their tail, mostly ppl with starter mounts, vulnerable to the enemy.


Shall I go on or do you get the picture?
It's a self made problem.

[OldPlayer]

While getting farmed in a scenario is just as boring as freenwning BOs and Keeps, at least in the Freenown empty ORVR setting, your lower level players can actually gain, RR, INFLUENCE (for items) and XP. Our low level players depend upon the 6-man premade to win the SC with them along helping out, but that's no guarantee of a victory in an SC. Premades Lose SCs and get a smaller reward too. Lets keep this as balanced as possible... after all, "unstoppable Destro Players" die too... Ask me how I know..

I totally agree with the area of effect of RvR rewards: lots of people who do not spend much effort can get stable income of XP/RR/INF, overall state of nation improves while skills are degrading. Pro destro player roaming or playing in premade becomes skilled in PvP, while order player depends on its warband size to carry over the enemy. (Destro player becoming dependant on his elite group and refusing to play alone or without a group is entirely different problem, similar players do exist on order side as well.)

[not so much of an irony]
I just hope that after these weeks of glorious PvD everyone will agree that Keep Trading was part of a game, is part of a game and will be part of a game because that is part of Warhammer Online, answering the deepest wish of most players' mentality: progress and grind. If you disagree, you obviously did not play RoR for last 2-3 weeks.
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