Choppa Pull, fix or delete it?

[Tyrodan]

You can avoid any discussion about dps classes with the argument that you have guard and heal, and if you are not able to use them properly its your fault. Regarding the healers, i have no idea if you ever played one, but you also have some stuff your group could use like silence/stagge/ap drain. I play healer on both sides, and while i'm not saying my positioning is perfect, playing destro healer is much more easy because you don't have to maintain 100ft range all the time. If you tell me you are able to keep your party alive while always be on max range I don't believe you any word.

I just told you, how you can reliably prevent exploding in the meatgrinder and you just dismissed it, because it didn't suit you. Regarding the healers: its funny that you mention it, because I too play healers excessively and I find healing much more difficult on destro side than when I still mained my rp.

Back then I also never had any issues with GTDC. I don't know if I played max range all the time, because of 80 feet master runes, but I certainly never had much problems avoiding choppa pulls. I also never found choppa pulls much troublesome for my teammates as I usually played in an organised setting. The only people that exploded after being pulled in the meatgrinder were stupid pugging legolas gits without guard, that played aoe spec and got too cocky.

I'm also playing wh for some time now and the only time I get caught with GTDC is when I get too greedy and want to finish an already hurt destro player too close to the blob, even though I have no pull immunity. But that's literally greed and <IQ 80 gameplay on my side, not some overtuned ability.

Of course from your perspective I could just be some evil lying destro ****, but luckily there's a solution: this forum has a well stocked media section with plenty of video footage from organised guilds like Nightmare and others. If GTDC is as disruptive to gameplay as you state, you should have no trouble finding plenty of video evidence of people getting pulled and consecutively stomped in the meatgrinder for both order (somewhere in the background) and destro videos. Show me parts where this ability is systematically used to wipe toons and you get me to shut up.

My assumption: you will only find some rare anecdotal scene where this happens, if you find any at all.

[Everdin]

You can avoid any discussion about dps classes with the argument that you have guard and heal, and if you are not able to use them properly its your fault. Regarding the healers, i have no idea if you ever played one, but you also have some stuff your group could use like silence/stagge/ap drain. I play healer on both sides, and while i'm not saying my positioning is perfect, playing destro healer is much more easy because you don't have to maintain 100ft range all the time. If you tell me you are able to keep your party alive while always be on max range I don't believe you any word.

I just told you, how you can reliably prevent exploding in the meatgrinder and you just dismissed it, because it didn't suit you. Regarding the healers: its funny that you mention it, because I too play healers excessively and I find healing much more difficult on destro side than when I still mained my rp.

Back then I also never had any issues with GTDC. I don't know if I played max range all the time, because of 80 feet master runes, but I certainly never had much problems avoiding choppa pulls. I also never found choppa pulls much troublesome for my teammates as I usually played in an organised setting. The only people that exploded after being pulled in the meatgrinder were stupid pugging legolas gits without guard, that played aoe spec and got too cocky.

I'm also playing wh for some time now and the only time I get caught with GTDC is when I get too greedy and want to finish an already hurt destro player too close to the blob, even though I have no pull immunity. But that's literally greed and <IQ 80 gameplay on my side, not some overtuned ability.

Of course from your perspective I could just be some evil lying destro ****, but luckily there's a solution: this forum has a well stocked media section with plenty of video footage from organised guilds like Nightmare and others. If GTDC is as disruptive to gameplay as you state, you should have no trouble finding plenty of video evidence of people getting pulled and consecutively stomped in the meatgrinder for both order (somewhere in the background) and destro videos. Show me parts where this ability is systematically used to wipe toons and you get me to shut up.

My assumption: you will only find some rare anecdotal scene where this happens, if you find any at all.

Of course you can survive getting pulled, you can survive rampage, so no more discussion on these topics?

You will find videos where no choppa is in sight and order die, you will find videos where no slayer is in sight and destro die, you will find videos with a bunch of slayers killing other warbands, you will find videos with gtdc spamming choppas not killing anything, you will find videos where people pulled by gtdc die. You wont find any video that PROVES anything because it all depends on the context and who your enemy is. You wont find a lot of order smallscale video where you see someone die in gtdc, people often not showing bad times in videos. While you bring some unicorn 24vs24 fights as argument, there are often fights where you have to retreat because of 24vs48, and at this point gtdc is the most stupid ez-mode prevention of order pulling out of a fight. The smaller the scale the more this is a factor.

[emiliorv]

I'm down to remove GTDC and give them some equivalent to slayer. If you want Rampage, you will have to sacrifice destro tanks superiority compared to order tanks. Also down for that, makes things more even.

For that order will have to sacrifice their heal superiority compared to destro....mostly after the best destro healdebuff was nerfed into oblivion years ago...

[Everdin]

I'm down to remove GTDC and give them some equivalent to slayer. If you want Rampage, you will have to sacrifice destro tanks superiority compared to order tanks. Also down for that, makes things more even.

For that order will have to sacrifice their heal superiority compared to destro....mostly after the best destro healdebuff was nerfed into oblivion years ago...

Shame that destro dont have aoe healdebuff on every dot tic from dok anymore :-/.

[Tyrodan]

Of course you can survive getting pulled, you can survive rampage, so no more discussion on these topics?

You will find videos where no choppa is in sight and order die, you will find videos where no slayer is in sight and destro die, you will find videos with a bunch of slayers killing other warbands, you will find videos with gtdc spamming choppas not killing anything, you will find videos where people pulled by gtdc die. You wont find any video that PROVES anything because it all depends on the context and who your enemy is. You wont find a lot of order smallscale video where you see someone die in gtdc, people often not showing bad times in videos. While you bring some unicorn 24vs24 fights as argument, there are often fights where you have to retreat because of 24vs48, and at this point gtdc is the most stupid ez-mode prevention of order pulling out of a fight. The smaller the scale the more this is a factor.

So to sum it up:
- Choppa pull is super op to kill people, but magically there's not really much video evidence even on destro side, also it is usally not op in unicorn 24 vs 24 fights (which balance usually revolves around)
- Choppa pull is super op to catch some more fleeing oponents when the fight is already lost because of enemy number superiority

Just to make this clear: Everdin agrees, that choppa pull is only ever useful in certain situations or when the fight is already lost. He also refuses to provide any form of proof, other than his personal opinion. And this boys is the basis on which we discuss a choppa nerf.

[Everdin]

Can someone explain me why destro-tanks are so superior compared to order tanks? I Really don´t know, i have to play mostly healer.

Plz only in short terms:
Something like BO hast cd-reduce - oh wait...
don´t talk about the great punt he has since a few patches

or BG has a recommended viable shield-spec.


P.s. If u wana see an Tank melting like ice in a volcano, come destro and join a keepfunnel. Last seen yesterday in Praag.

Bringing a bug to a balance discussion is some kind of weired. Also "Destro tanks are weak because we died one time yesterday" is a statement without any value. In one post you first say you have no clue about tanks and the rest of the post is complaining about tanks.

Yes, u´re right.

But ur Post doesn´t explain why destro tanks are so much superior, too.

At least i would say "tanks are nearly even"

Why should i have to explain what other people say? I can only reliable compare BG and IB, there are some threads explaining the difference starting by superior ressource management and goes to more valuable (compareable) abilitys. This whole issue would open too much side discussion here, but if you want we can talk about this seperately.

While Chosen not giving up too much defense (if any) the damage is much higher then kotbs, other then this i can not say too much about utility, but they seem to be very close regarding this.
And to catch up with you on bringen bugs to balance discussions, stay focused + focused mending still bugs if you witch weapons for over a half year (at least), Chosen auras work fine!

[Everdin]

Of course you can survive getting pulled, you can survive rampage, so no more discussion on these topics?

You will find videos where no choppa is in sight and order die, you will find videos where no slayer is in sight and destro die, you will find videos with a bunch of slayers killing other warbands, you will find videos with gtdc spamming choppas not killing anything, you will find videos where people pulled by gtdc die. You wont find any video that PROVES anything because it all depends on the context and who your enemy is. You wont find a lot of order smallscale video where you see someone die in gtdc, people often not showing bad times in videos. While you bring some unicorn 24vs24 fights as argument, there are often fights where you have to retreat because of 24vs48, and at this point gtdc is the most stupid ez-mode prevention of order pulling out of a fight. The smaller the scale the more this is a factor.

So to sum it up:
- Choppa pull is super op to kill people, but magically there's not really much video evidence even on destro side, also it is usally not op in unicorn 24 vs 24 fights (which balance usually revolves around)
- Choppa pull is super op to catch some more fleeing oponents when the fight is already lost because of enemy number superiority

Just to make this clear: Everdin agrees, that choppa pull is only ever useful in certain situations or when the fight is already lost. He also refuses to provide any form of proof, other than his personal opinion. And this boys is the basis on which we discuss a choppa nerf.

What kind of clown are you?

I never saw any evidence in this thread where you can prove that rampage is what killed destro and not any other factor or the incompetence of the destro.
I never said that a fight is lost as soon as the enemy numbers are higher, if you loose every outnumbered fight...sorry for that

And SUPRISE, gtdc is only usefull in situations where you want to close a gap between you and your enemy. In a situation where order is crushing destros under their feet with big numbers, a choppa pulling a slayer in his own backline is not usefull (for destro).

Every ability is just usefull in certain situations, throwing rampage against an enemy without considerable defense is stupid. Defensive moral is only usefull if damage is overwhelming, aoe moral drop is only usefull if timed with others. Stagger is only usefull if no aoe spraying friends are in range.

[Farrul]

replace it with ID+rampage, sure, y not.
they are not asking to replace it, they asking to DELETE it.

Obviously nobody thinks it should get deleted leaving a blank 13 point empty space.

If you want Order melee stuff you need to first understand the difference of the factions melee situation(judging from your replies you dont ).

Order : never has enough tanks, order has an abundance of ranged dps. '' OP rampage Slayer '' is less popular than WL/WH.

Destro : has a wall of tanks. Always have an abundance of Choppas. What does your logic tell you will happen if a massive blob of choppas on rampage vs fewer Order tanks/melee? (Hint: Every singly Order will roll ranged dps to pew pew from safety and the server is likely not going to last for long)

I am not against giving Choppas the equivalent of rampage but first the overall balance has to be looked at(Order tanks).

GTDC? A bugged/broken mess, hence an abomination that deteriorates the game, only solution is to fix/replace it and that has nothing to do with rampage(if that is bugged, fix it too)

[Everdin]

Spoiler:

Of course you can survive getting pulled, you can survive rampage, so no more discussion on these topics?

You will find videos where no choppa is in sight and order die, you will find videos where no slayer is in sight and destro die, you will find videos with a bunch of slayers killing other warbands, you will find videos with gtdc spamming choppas not killing anything, you will find videos where people pulled by gtdc die. You wont find any video that PROVES anything because it all depends on the context and who your enemy is. You wont find a lot of order smallscale video where you see someone die in gtdc, people often not showing bad times in videos. While you bring some unicorn 24vs24 fights as argument, there are often fights where you have to retreat because of 24vs48, and at this point gtdc is the most stupid ez-mode prevention of order pulling out of a fight. The smaller the scale the more this is a factor.

So to sum it up:
- Choppa pull is super op to kill people, but magically there's not really much video evidence even on destro side, also it is usally not op in unicorn 24 vs 24 fights (which balance usually revolves around)
- Choppa pull is super op to catch some more fleeing oponents when the fight is already lost because of enemy number superiority

Just to make this clear: Everdin agrees, that choppa pull is only ever useful in certain situations or when the fight is already lost. He also refuses to provide any form of proof, other than his personal opinion. And this boys is the basis on which we discuss a choppa nerf.

You are laying words into people's mouths whereas your "arguments" are built in a extremely toxic way. If you don't have anything productive to contribute, please refrain from adding your toxic waste to discussions.

I think this thread has outlived it's purpose, people like that will just jump in and derail any discussion.

The problem in this thread is the comparsion between the uncompareable. "You want to take out gtdc, give us rampage & id" with this mentality, this would go on until we have exact mirrors on every class.
If gtdc is useless and a problem for destro, and an annoyance for order, the discussion should easy move to some constructive ideas, but as soon as some thread comes up there are a certain kind of people crying "This ability is sooooo useless compared to rampage, but DONT TAKE IT FROM ME". (no matter about the ability the thread is about, its always rampage)

[Tyrodan]

You are laying words into people's mouths whereas your "arguments" are built in a extremely toxic way. If you don't have anything productive to contribute, please refrain from adding your toxic waste to discussions.

I think this thread has outlived it's purpose, people like that will just jump in and derail any discussion.

********** ulu. We are in a thread where the advocates of the choppa nerf provide nothing but "Muh I died to choppa pull. Choppa pull op. Choppa pull must go." and you talk about being toxic? The projection is strong in you.

What kind of clown are you?

I never saw any evidence in this thread where you can prove that rampage is what killed destro and not any other factor or the incompetence of the destro.
I never said that a fight is lost as soon as the enemy numbers are higher, if you loose every outnumbered fight...sorry for that

And SUPRISE, gtdc is only usefull in situations where you want to close a gap between you and your enemy. In a situation where order is crushing destros under their feet with big numbers, a choppa pulling a slayer in his own backline is not usefull (for destro).

Every ability is just usefull in certain situations, throwing rampage against an enemy without considerable defense is stupid. Defensive moral is only usefull if damage is overwhelming, aoe moral drop is only usefull if timed with others. Stagger is only usefull if no aoe spraying friends are in range.

Dude... we are in a thread about nerfing a choppa based on pure anecdotal evidence, I was pointing out the double standards, not making a nerf thread for slayers. You see the difference? Besides I just told you, how to convince me and shut me up on the topic.

When the mdpv guy wanted to point out the op-ness of def we he posted some videos to stress his points some weeks ago. I'm asking the same of you. If choppa pull is of any notable relevance in organised or smallscale play, please provide videos of people abusing the **** out of it. There's more than enough video footage of organised destro wb- and smallscale-play. In my own experience, choppa pull was never relevant in any meaningful dimension. You object. Good, proof it then.