Overarching balance changes

[kweedko]

Not sure what PuGing have to do with playing the class correctly there are tons of people who PuG who are masters of the class. What's gonna happen with something like KD bypassing guard for it's duration just gonna give premades more advantages over pugs as they can cordinate this via coms while pugs have to rely on reactions Seriusly if there arn't gona be any kinda changes with the mindset that PuG game play doesn't mather then just **** removee solo ques from the game, scenario PuG's stand for probobly 75% of the scenario population and yet their opintions should be completly ignored so they can give premades shorter que times and be nothing but epeen and renown feeders? Thats a good way to kill a game.

I told them so but they won't listen they all so edgy 6vs6 ers who don't even get a 40rr rank and they speak for balance.

There is a real players which oppinion i could listen, like those who on top of rr now Like Danileta, Vaping, Svarz, Couple of nasty SW (Sprits and Pedik) Teefz and so one, and theyr healbots guardbots they realy playing the game not this forumwarriors nonsens.

[peterthepan3]

Not sure what PuGing have to do with playing the class correctly there are tons of people who PuG who are masters of the class. What's gonna happen with something like KD bypassing guard for it's duration just gonna give premades more advantages over pugs as they can cordinate this via coms while pugs have to rely on reactions Seriusly if there arn't gona be any kinda changes with the mindset that PuG game play doesn't mather then just **** removee solo ques from the game, scenario PuG's stand for probobly 75% of the scenario population and yet their opintions should be completly ignored so they can give premades shorter que times and be nothing but epeen and renown feeders? Thats a good way to kill a game.

I told them so but they won't listen they all so edgy 6vs6 ers who don't even get a 40rr rank and they speak for balance.

There is a real players which oppinion i could listen, like those who on top of rr now Like Danileta, Vaping, Svarz, Couple of nasty SW (Sprits and Pedik) Teefz and so one, and theyr healbots guardbots they realy playing the game not this forumwarriors nonsens.

1) you guys are deliberately misinterpreting what Penril said. Noone is saying anything of the sort. 'Competitive players' means players who can play their class well. This is simply not up for debate.

2) Top RR doesn't equate to a competitive player, in my opinion. What does having a RR40 on a beta emulator server have to do with being skillfull? Or do you equate spamming oil for several hours a day as being a competent player?

3) Those are decent players (Svarz and Teefz in particular) but I'm pretty sure they run in premades themselves (I never see Svarz without a group of skilled players), so these people you seem to worship also run in premades.

[Valfaros]

Okay the thing is:

Is a game balanceable around pugs: NO.
I think everybody gets that and knows that you need to look at certain group setups and see if they are balanced. Warhammer however needs a certain setup to get the group work this is the reason why pugs are so many times just way worse. Best is 2:2:2 while 2:3:1 also works when you have a good tank but everything else is super weak compared to it. Group setup where you go for 4dds and 2 healers do not work (against most groups) in warhammer which atleast I think is a bad thing. Having a balance around more than two setups would be desirable because it gives the game more diversity. Atm the strongest groups only use four different classes where every other grp combination is minor to it.
Since guard offeres such a big difference to the game you can't say okay we go for 4 dds and we will just burst down the enemy. This just don't works because dd's without guard are super squishy and dd's with guard just get extreamly tanky close to the point where they are not killable at all aka marauder+tank.
However I do think that it is nearly impossible to manage a balance around more setups in order to promote pugs which often get have the problem of getting the setups not correctly.

Should we still try to find a way where a PuG grp is not freeloot if they are matched against a perfect setup premade: I think have to
If you take a look what most of the players do than you realise that premades are just a small percentage of the overall playerbase which is also the point why you can't seperate the ques atm. I mean you could but you would endup with long ques for premades I think pug players won't really feal a big difference. So since premades need the pug players in order to not wait 30 minutes for a match or get matches against the same team over and over again I say it is essential that you find a way to make matches more balanced and enjoyable for pugs vs premades. If you do it by changing mechanics or if you do it by giving a buff to players who que rdm is up to you but only caring for premades is definitly the wrong way to do it. If you still think only premades matter then go ahead and seperate the ques and see how the premades feel then about certain changes.

Can we discuss if guard is lacking of counterplay: Of course

[Jaycub]

I told them so but they won't listen they all so edgy 6vs6 ers who don't even get a 40rr rank and they speak for balance.

There is a real players which oppinion i could listen, like those who on top of rr now Like Danileta, Vaping, Svarz, Couple of nasty SW (Sprits and Pedik) Teefz and so one, and theyr healbots guardbots they realy playing the game not this forumwarriors nonsens.

Not saying anything bad about these players, but the amount of people who would be over RR50 w/o abusing siege would probably be 0.

[Penril]

Not sure what PuGing have to do with playing the class correctly there are tons of people who PuG who are masters of the class.

Who said that? I said "no one should be asking for nerfs/changes based on poor play/pug". That means poor play OR pug. Not that they are the same thing.

I told them so but they won't listen they all so edgy 6vs6 ers who don't even get a 40rr rank and they speak for balance.

There is a real players which oppinion i could listen, like those who on top of rr now Like Danileta, Vaping, Svarz, Couple of nasty SW (Sprits and Pedik) Teefz and so one, and theyr healbots guardbots they realy playing the game not this forumwarriors nonsens.

You are delusional or just trolling if you say rr means skill. There were a lot rr100s on live that simply AFK'd at zones leeching renown or payed for renown powerleveling. Same thing here: being rr50-60 just means you played a class longer than other people. There are some exceptions like members of certain guilds who constantly fight the zerg, looking for AAO. Or soloers doing the same thing in the lakes. Still, the thing is: they are high renown rank BECAUSE they are skilled. Not the other way around (they are skilled because they are high renown rank). Big difference.

Hell, some of the most skilled people I know are low rr due to playing a lot of alts.

[Morf]

I dont know why you lot are still discussing guard as if something needs to be done, the counters to guard are there, furthermore if you change or add another counter to guard all you do is make the strong stronger and the weak weaker, changing nothing what so ever.

[Tankbeardz]

I dont know why you lot are still discussing guard as if something needs to be done, the counters to guard are there, furthermore if you change or add another counter to guard all you do is make the strong stronger and the weak weaker, changing nothing what so ever.

Agreed. People always seem to look at this from their own perspective and never equate it to the overall balance. So a nerf gets pushed out and pugs get stomped even harder...now what...more nerfs. If you want to change the game...make it so that you are rewarded for different group makeups that require different classes instead of the classic 3-2-1 or 2-2-2 which usually means a dok/WP (or 2) and a knight/chosen (or 2).

[Tankbeardz]

Not sure what PuGing have to do with playing the class correctly there are tons of people who PuG who are masters of the class. What's gonna happen with something like KD bypassing guard for it's duration just gonna give premades more advantages over pugs as they can cordinate this via coms while pugs have to rely on reactions Seriusly if there arn't gona be any kinda changes with the mindset that PuG game play doesn't mather then just **** removee solo ques from the game, scenario PuG's stand for probobly 75% of the scenario population and yet their opintions should be completly ignored so they can give premades shorter que times and be nothing but epeen and renown feeders? Thats a good way to kill a game.

I can tell you that I PuG quite often...and pugs are usually concerned with themselves, just like premades are.

How often do you receive guard or focused healing when you are pugging? -- This is not a valid argument IMO.

No one said PUGS should be ignored...but the proposed changes to guard will actually hurt them even more. You can't nerf someone into playing their class the way that benefits everyone and you can't force someone to guard you or throw you a heal.

[Jaycub]

How are we deluding ourselves into thinking nerfs to guard would be bad for pugs? If guard was removed altogether that would be a massive buff to pugging.

This isn't a comment about balance, just saying anything that waters down the need for X class or a certain comp is always going to benefit PUGs more than premades.

But maybe it will depend on what the actual changes to guard or it's counter play will be (if any). The point brought up about it being a small window needing coordination (voice comms) to take full advantage of for example wouldn't change much between PUG/Premade balance or might even buff the higher level of premades and put more emphasis on voice comms as being mandatory


About the whole balance aspect between PUGs and premades, WAR has 3 arenas of play; ORvR, Scenarios, and organized guild vs guild or tourney style fighting. The latter being something that is virtually nonexistant, and ORvR being the main game mode or way to play WAR.

If scenarios where the main draw of the game, then PUG vs Premade balance would matter more, but it's not. The only way to balance out premades and pugs are to separate them (discussed many times) otherwise you are dumbing the game down and lowering the skill ceiling, but nothing is going to stop teams with voice communications having a massive advantage over those that don't.

[Tankbeardz]

How are we deluding ourselves into thinking nerfs to guard would be bad for pugs? If guard was removed altogether that would be a massive buff to pugging.

You can't nerf a skill to make someone heal/dps/tank better...it just doesn't work. They will not suddenly find the best heal/dps rotation or determine the best target. Don't get me wrong...I would love to rift an entire group, KD them and them burst them down before they get up...but that doesn't translate into a benefit for the overall game balance. It's just a bandaid that will make my SC stats look prettier.