The Long Road to RR80: Veteran Insights on WL vs. WE

[Ziorah]

First of all, I love that story about the KotBS! It’s exactly how I feel—playing what you love is way more rewarding than just chasing a meta build. Being the 'underdog' and proving people wrong is a great motivator.

I’ve already experienced the 'ranged advantage' with my Squig Herder. It’s definitely easier and faster to farm Renown Rank points when you can just stay at a distance, but it just doesn't satisfy that melee 'itch' I have. I’ve always loved the 'ganking & brawler' aspect in other games—that thrill of striking from the shadows is a big part of why I’m still looking at the WE/WH.

Regarding communication, I’m definitely planning to set up macros for important calls. Since I can’t speak, it’s my way of being a team player without the stress of a live Discord conversation.

I actually tried an Ironbreaker (IB) up to CR32, but I really struggled with him. To be honest, it felt like playing a piano. There was so much more to do than just dealing damage—managing the 'Oathfriend' buffs and all the utility felt a bit overwhelming at times.

Since many of you suggested the Sword Master (SM): Does it feel as complicated as the Ironbreaker? I’m looking for a brawler that feels fluid and direct, not like I’m sitting at a grand piano while people are trying to kill me!

Martok: I'll watch your new video later. Thanks!

[Sinisterror]

First of all, I love that story about the KotBS! It’s exactly how I feel—playing what you love is way more rewarding than just chasing a meta build. Being the 'underdog' and proving people wrong is a great motivator.

I’ve already experienced the 'ranged advantage' with my Squig Herder. It’s definitely easier and faster to farm Renown Rank points when you can just stay at a distance, but it just doesn't satisfy that melee 'itch' I have. I’ve always loved the 'ganking & brawler' aspect in other games—that thrill of striking from the shadows is a big part of why I’m still looking at the WE/WH.

Regarding communication, I’m definitely planning to set up macros for important calls. Since I can’t speak, it’s my way of being a team player without the stress of a live Discord conversation.

I actually tried an Ironbreaker (IB) up to CR32, but I really struggled with him. To be honest, it felt like playing a piano. There was so much more to do than just dealing damage—managing the 'Oathfriend' buffs and all the utility felt a bit overwhelming at times.

Since many of you suggested the Sword Master (SM): Does it feel as complicated as the Ironbreaker? I’m looking for a brawler that feels fluid and direct, not like I’m sitting at a grand piano while people are trying to kill me!

Martok: I'll watch your new video later. Thanks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG7xpwDq5Xo Here is Motivation to start WH

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTWEwuj5BOw Motivation to play Wl

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVzvjyMV2Ro Motivation to play WE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gtVJUfvKVg Maybe play Melee Healer? Dmg is nice and

Swordmaster is much more straightforward to play compared to IB and 2h Spirit dmg is very nice feature

[Ziorah]

Thanks a million for the videos—I actually already knew one of them. In the end, I decided on my WE today, but I’m going to give an SM a try on the side.

[Sinisterror]

Great choices!

[Ziorah]

Quick question: Is the Black Guard on par with the Swordmaster as a brawler, or does he lack the mental damage?

[Starx]

Quick question: Is the Black Guard on par with the Swordmaster as a brawler, or does he lack the mental damage?

BG is my favorite tank to play as a traditional snb style tank, you dont really do any damage but you have probably the most interesting kit to play with. You have the longest punt and KD in the game, aoe snare, tools to make healers want to smash their keyboard. I play it less as a brawler and more as a constant CC debuff/buff bot. The super punt gives you the best tool in the game to remove guard, or get in enemy backline and throw squishies into your backline, or send dps that are threatening your team into africa for a while. 5 sec kd is one of the most unfun things to be on the recieving end of.

You have a spammable 50% outgoing healdebuff, which you can make last 25 seconds, on top of AP drains, interupts, punt, and kd you can make healers lives hell. Just make sure you arent over commiting to this and letting your team fold because you are in tgeir backline when your team needs you. But if you are allowed to sit in their backline without consequence the amount of anti healing you do will be greater than any dps you could ever hope to put out. Of course this wont be reflected on scoreboard so people tend to not care.

If you get comfortable floating dp around you got some insane buffs like nearly 500 wilpower, for your healers, a nice bubble+3 seconds of 100% parry and disrupt to save people even out of party. They also got cooldown reduction recently for the party which is really strong for certain classes.

They also have a tactic a really like which gives them 30% inc movespeed on disrupt which doesnt get cancelled like similar buffs on ability use, its just a shame that order has less spell slingers thanks to engineer vs magus. But if you get into a scenario and see 2+ bws on the other side it can be worth running and a ton of fun.

Its the best class to be a ******** and make people hate you which is funny since that fits with their lore/flavor kind of.

2h is probably what is more popular since thats more the iconic BG look from the tabletop and people like doing dmg more and as you say brawling.

SM is going to be the better of the 2 at killing things and brawling 1v1.

BG is just overshadowed by BO and chosen forever, IB was pretty much the same thing with knight and SM but I hear that since getting their auto attack buff they are much better now.

And back when I was playing 5+ years ago when IB and BG where considered the worst tanks no contest it wasnt that they where "bad" it was that they had to compete against auras from chosen/knight which is impossible to do, and back then BO and SM also had good automated buffs and debuffs on top of being psuedo dps. IMO and im sure ppl will disagree the biggest strength of ib and bg back then at least in small scale and scens was their outgoing healdebuff. The problem is/was against better players its harder to pull off, healers are going to be cleansing more, not letting you walk up to them, their tanks will peel and mess with you, and your team will be getting pressured harder meaning your ability to actually go up and apply these outgoings wont always be possible without you putting your party in a bad positition without a tank nesrby for guard.

And so it was just better to instead run BO/SM in the assist train instead of trying to get value out of a BG/IB ability to shutdown healers. Not to mention much easier to play. And of course chosen/kotbs have been pretty much for time immemorial mandatory picks so your second tank choice was the only optional thing.

[Ziorah]

First of all: Thank you very much to everyone who has participated in this discussion and, hopefully, will continue to do so.

Starx, I have to start by saying: thank you!

Your 'novels' are exactly what I need. Since I was born mute, I have a significant disadvantage in this game’s community. I can’t just hop into Discord, join a voice channel, and have someone explain the mechanics to me in five minutes. For me, everything has to be text-based—asking questions, waiting for replies, and then following up. It’s a much slower process, which is why I value your detailed, written insights so much. You clearly have a massive amount of experience, and I’m soaking it all up!

Your description of the Black Guard (BG) was eye-opening. The way you described making healers want to 'smash their keyboards' with that 50% heal debuff and the 'super punt' sounds absolutely devastating. From an Order perspective, a BG that actually knows how to use that kit sounds like a nightmare to deal with. Being sent to 'Africa' by a punt while trying to save a teammate sounds like the ultimate way to tilt the enemy. It’s a very interesting role—acting as a 'debuff/buff bot' that controls the flow of the battle rather than just hitting things.

However, after a lot of soul-searching, I’ve decided that I won't be playing a tank. I’ll admit, I feel like a bit of a 'bad gentleman' here. I’m in a great guild called Retribution, and I know that if I showed up as a dedicated tank, I’d have a spot in every organized warband. It feels a bit selfish to turn my back on that 'mandatory' role, but my heart just beats for DPS and those high-stakes, challenging 1v1 duels. I’ve always been drawn to the pressure of being the executioner, not the protector.

My current roster reflects that struggle:

Order: Bitsy Bigbang (Engi), Hilde Hexbane (WH), and Bahee Bane (WL).

Destro: Rhakkz Rukk (Squig) and Nyss (WE).

I have a real 'shared economy' advantage on Order with three characters to funnel gold and drops, which leaves poor Nyss quite lonely on the Destruction side! I’m still weighing the Witch Hunter (WH) against the Witch Elf (WE). I love the sheer mobility and 'pounce' of the WE, but the WH’s pistol offers that bit of ranged utility that feels very tactical.

Even though the BG and SM have a certain 'brawler' charm, I have to follow my heart. I’d rather be a master of my blades than a reluctant shield-bearer. Thanks again for taking the time to write these guides for me—it means more than you know!

Just for context, all of my characters except for Bitsy are well below CR 28. If I were to main my WH instead of the WE, I’d actually have my perfect trio on the Order side. But the mobility and that feeling of being 'glued' to the target on the WE is just such a great feeling—I suspect the WH might lack that specific 'stickiness'. To be fair, I don't fully know the WH's unique advantages yet, but that feeling is what keeps me coming back to the WE.

See you in the lakes (from the shadows)!

[Martok]

BG is my favorite tank to play as a traditional snb style tank, you dont really do any damage but you have probably the most interesting kit to play with. You have the longest punt and KD in the game, aoe snare, tools to make healers want to smash their keyboard. I play it less as a brawler and more as a constant CC debuff/buff bot.

Now both Chosen and Black Orc's have the same knock/down-punt mechanic built in. The Chosen punt has the same duration as the Black Guard punt, the arc is simply higher. The Black Orc knock-down-punt may not be quite as effective but the annoyance factor you mention is still baked in. Consequently all three Destro tanks can employ the same technique.

[Starx]

BG is my favorite tank to play as a traditional snb style tank, you dont really do any damage but you have probably the most interesting kit to play with. You have the longest punt and KD in the game, aoe snare, tools to make healers want to smash their keyboard. I play it less as a brawler and more as a constant CC debuff/buff bot.

Now both Chosen and Black Orc's have the same knock/down-punt mechanic built in. The Chosen punt has the same duration as the Black Guard punt, the arc is simply higher. The Black Orc knock-down-punt may not be quite as effective but the annoyance factor you mention is still baked in. Consequently all three Destro tanks can employ the same technique.

Thinking more about distance with punts than duration. Or at least I think the more important aspect is where that person lands rather than how long they are airborne, and at what position you can potentially send someone off terrain to force them LOS or have to make a long run to get back into a relavant position.

I know knight/chosen have better arc/trajectory which can be a big factor in whether or not a punt is either a minor inconvience vs that person now having to run 10 seconds to get back in the fight. And how long it takes a tank to get back into guard range

But isnt bg punt distance wise still the longest?

For SM/BO i always thought it was balanced they only had an aoe punt that was essentially free immunity outside specific situations, and it was a downside they had that they couldnt remove guard as well as the other tanks, im sure unintentional but probably needed.

[Ziorah]

"Can you please help me understand the difference between WE and WH? What are the differences?"

My current roster reflects that struggle:

Order: Bitsy Bigbang (Engi), Hilde Hexbane (WH), and Bahee Bane (WL).

Destro: Rhakkz Rukk (Squig) and Nyss (WE).

I have a real 'shared economy' advantage on Order with three characters to funnel gold and drops, which leaves poor Nyss quite lonely on the Destruction side! I’m still weighing the Witch Hunter (WH) against the Witch Elf (WE). I love the sheer mobility and 'pounce' of the WE, but the WH’s pistol offers that bit of ranged utility that feels very tactical.

Even though the BG and SM have a certain 'brawler' charm, I have to follow my heart. I’d rather be a master of my blades than a reluctant shield-bearer. Thanks again for taking the time to write these guides for me—it means more than you know!

Just for context, all of my characters except for Bitsy are well below CR 28. If I were to main my WH instead of the WE, I’d actually have my perfect trio on the Order side. But the mobility and that feeling of being 'glued' to the target on the WE is just such a great feeling—I suspect the WH might lack that specific 'stickiness'. To be fair, I don't fully know the WH's unique advantages yet, but that feeling is what keeps me coming back to the WE.

See you in the lakes (from the shadows)!