Shaman builds, RR, etc.

[Miszczu5647]

I really like your suggestion about Gather Round and waiting for balance discussion.

Now I run my shammy in heal spec plus healdebuff and morale pump from middle tree. As a healbot I felt rather useless for my group (aoe heal -snare- aoe heal -absorb - aoe heal...boring). Now I can give more for the group and this gives me fun.

Of course shaman need a lot of love, to the point of his core mechanic. But this should stay for balance discussion.

[Panzerkasper]

@Panzerkasper
In warband scale fights one WP/DoK healing your group isn't gonna cut it. All frontline dps takes AoE dmg, all tanks take AoE dmg + Guard damage, All healers takes AoE dmg, You takee AoE dmg. You need to group heal. It's the bread and butter heal for ORVR, and will always be. What you talk about only aplies to smaller scale fights were you can get away with ST burst heal people. In warband scale fights stuff like runspeed procs and hot on cleanse becomes pretty useless. Shamans and Archmages need tools to deal with all the setbacks, interupts, CC and casttime increasers or else they will just be replaced by DoK's. I've sugested a Gather Round/Blessing of Isha change to help deal with this as the 2,5sec cast time is thee biggest reason why these classes doesn't really cut it in these situations. The reason RP/ZE are ablee to do it is coz of tall the procs that helps with setbacks, healoutput and AoE hot's etz. Here's my sugestion again. (Made up heal numbeeers)

Bleessing of Isha/Gather Round (30AP/sec 2,5sec to cast)
Heals your entire group for 200 health every second for 2 second and another 300 at the end of channel if not interupted.

Instead of:

Bleessing of Isha/Gather Round (65ap, 2,5sec to cast)
Heals your entire group for 700 health

You argument as if i have tried to prove you wrong. I just pointed out what the shaman was initially (thats what i believe) designed to do (btw i forgot the hot on cleanse, so we are at 5 hots possible).
His aoe healing was always quite bad i dont deny this and i would clearly welcome a change to this. I always thought of changing the tactic "Pass it on" to give Ere we go a little hot that ticks after 1 and 2 sec after the initial heal.

[Morf]

Problem is career mechanics being useless, same goes for am, lieftap healing/dps and heal just doesnt work, make career mechanics work and not much will need changing to skills.

I have a suggestion on how to make career mechanics mean something whether it will work or not idk, will share my thoughts at some point.

[roadkillrobin]

Problem is career mechanics being useless, same goes for am, lieftap healing/dps and heal just doesnt work, make career mechanics work and not much will need changing to skills.

I have a suggestion on how to make career mechanics mean something whether it will work or not idk, will share my thoughts at some point.

I'm only talking about Shamans/AM on in warband scale here, i think both Shaman and AM as healers are pretty much fine in smaller scale fights as there isn't dmg flying around all over the place to interupt/setback you. But the groupheal functionally needs to work in warband scale or else they will just be replaced by a DoK/WP. And i really think the sugestion i made will open em up for it. It's basicly the same HoT vallue but you won't be as vournable to setbacks(interupts wich is pretty much what kills em in warbands.

[footpatrol2]

Ya I disagree.

I think the shaman/AM classes are relatively fine. I wrote a massive thing but deleted it because it was a mini book and no one will read it anyway. There are reason's on why you want to take a lot of shaman's in a warband setting. It's about warband design and what is the goal your trying to achieve with it. There is no Best warband design, only flavors.

I think it was needed that shatter confidence's 65 ft range was nerfed but besides that its not a huge deal.

We take dps shaman's in a competitive environment and we are doing fine. You need to have a group that can apply frontline pressure after that is established and the threat is there, you can add in dps shaman's. They are very good at killing armored targets and WP's.

I can elaborate but choose to stop here in fear of writing too much.

[Miszczu5647]

Last evening (23 PM CET) I (and my shammy) had a pleasure to play with four guys from Black Toof Clan (2xBO, Choppa, Shaman). Two sc - one win (500:4) and one lost (400:500). And I mist admit that two shammans cooperating could make a huge performance:D Two snares are great. Outgoing heal is big enough to keep alive your party. So I agree with footpatrol2 that shaman have good skills and making them x2 give great results. If only shaman mechanics work (100% agreed with Morf).

P.S. Sorry guys but I have bad memory for names and I don't remember with whom I played:D

[Morf]

Spoiler:

Ya I disagree.

I think the shaman/AM classes are relatively fine. I wrote a massive thing but deleted it because it was a mini book and no one will read it anyway. There are reason's on why you want to take a lot of shaman's in a warband setting. It's about warband design and what is the goal your trying to achieve with it. There is no Best warband design, only flavors.

I think it was needed that shatter confidence's 65 ft range was nerfed but besides that its not a huge deal.

We take dps shaman's in a competitive environment and we are doing fine. You need to have a group that can apply frontline pressure after that is established and the threat is there, you can add in dps shaman's. They are very good at killing armored targets and WP's.

I can elaborate but choose to stop here in fear of writing too much.

This is rubbish, fighting randoms in wb situations every class is "relatively fine", you could use a keg engi in wb situations and say they do "relatively fine" as a healer but you certainly wouldnt take a keg engi as a healer in small scale setting.
Dps shamans in competitive situations are bad, i have tried it, the dps is not good enough and you need to be stationary to do dps, something that as a squishy robe class will get u killed or pressured so much there is no turning the tide.
You could say they are not suppose to be such a dps threat and you would be right as they do have heal capabilities however bad heals and bad dps doesnt cut it, you would be 100 times better off with a proper dps or proper healer.

Bottom line shamans for competitive play is not something you want to do, period, the only thing as a shaman you bring is morale boost for non healers that requires 2 tactic slots, doing so you lose def capabilities or lose healing output.

Spoiler:

Last evening (23 PM CET) I (and my shammy) had a pleasure to play with four guys from Black Toof Clan (2xBO, Choppa, Shaman). Two sc - one win (500:4) and one lost (400:500). And I mist admit that two shammans cooperating could make a huge performance:D Two snares are great. Outgoing heal is big enough to keep alive your party. So I agree with footpatrol2 that shaman have good skills and making them x2 give great results. If only shaman mechanics work (100% agreed with Morf).

P.S. Sorry guys but I have bad memory for names and I don't remember with whom I played:D

Again this is rubbish, can 2 shaman (or am) healers heal a group fighting unorganised players ? sure but the moment you come up against players who can assist and have high damage output especially bw's (as shamans cant cleanse there ****) you are screwed, any sort of pressure on shaman/am healers means they can barely survive themselves let alone do anything for there group, again im talking about fighting in competitive situations not sc's v pug players who dont assist,guard etc etc.


There are 3 problems for shaman healers and to a certain extent am healers (although wild healing makes a big difference), ap issues, cast time issues and setback issues.
Sovereign armor having an ap proc combined with restoration burst tactic meant ap issues were not a problem but an armor set proc shouldnt be the fix.
Having long cast times on strong heals means you cant heal thru burst (am's having funnel essence makes them a little better but still not good enough), how many times i have a target prehotted go to use my big heal and they are dead, to a degree you could say zealot and rune priest also have long cast times however when you take into consideration the extra procs and buffs they bring and there flash heal it makes up for long cast times on big heals.

The class is flawed, designed to be a lifetap dps healer using career mechanics to balance between the 2 which imo will never work because you are much better off with a real dps or healer

[Nabaro]

Yes, I agree with Morfee. At the moment, the shaman is pretty weak. Weak as DPS, weak as a healer, useless as a hybrid. It is necessary to fix the mechanics / skills.

[roadkillrobin]

Yupp also agree with pretty much all points on Morf here, fix the casttime, and you fix the setback problems, and you fix the survibaillity issues. The only thing I dissagree with is that I havn't really noticed much decrease in healing if you run thee Morale boost tactics. You loose a bit of cleansing and burst healing if target is on low hp, but thats it in my experience.

[footpatrol2]

I strongly disagree.

The class is a lot more flexible then players are giving it credit.

We, Black Toof Clan, run soley greenskin premade groups. We fight against some really tough meta premade groups and we win. We also fight against some really tough meta groups and we lose. The point is we are able to compete.

I really don't want to give our tricks away. Take 5 steps back and objectively look at all the tricks the shaman class can perform especially if your stacking them in a 12 man setting. What do they due really well and what do they have access too. I'll give you a hint. Drop the restorative burst tactic from your must have tactic slot line up. Here's another hint. We soley run greenskin groups and are doing so in a competitive environment. Try to gain my perspective.