Witch Hunter's Current Place in the Meta?

[Jaycub]

WH/WL 2-2-2 actually isn't too bad, especially since shatter limbs got nerfed. It was ran by a lot of guilds in T3 specifically (probably due to lack of spec points on slayer for HD?) and I finally been able to try it now. It's still probably worse than the slayer/WL group, and has the flaw that WH becomes the focus/shutdown target against better groups who know what they are doing. With the slayer/WL group everything is centered around the slayer and the WL is always able to assist thanks to pounce though 10 sec cd does create some situations where that's not the case if the other teams tanks are playing on point.

Also was able to watch that 6v6 video from the WP perspective, and I can def see where WH works there but I'm wondering if mid fight stealths and all the setup is a luxury only found in 6v6, most of our scs in NA are 12v12 and RDPS dominated so losing pressure even for like 10 seconds can be your undoing (smart destro groups tend to wipe out the pug group with no healer and then sit 12 ppl on someone in your premade).

3-2-1 groups are def fun, I'm a huge fan of the mara/sh/sorc group on destro it's probably my fav group to run, it just doesn't feel as good on order for some reason. And WL just seems so much better fit there as it has the armor debuff for SW and itself, the high mobility even after nerf to keep up with RDPS, and of course pull/root M1 lockdown.

[sotora]

Henrietta (WH) seems to be doing preety damn good in premade group atm, althrough that whole group is generally very good.

WH/WE generally seem to be worst mdps subclass for premade. Aside of lack/redundant utility I would attribute it to it being both very squischy (which is far worse for melee) and actually requiring high skill (as opposed to casusal play in which those classes are relatively straighforward and welcoming) to play in premade vs premade as WE/WH. From all classes I play WE (and I guess same goes for WH) leave least amount of space for error when you're in premade group facing other premade group.

Idk maybe for other players it's diffrent and I simply lack skill but for me playing WE in premade vs premade group specifically is most tense and stressful class to play out of those few classes I have 40s of. Also when I play as healer having WE in group usually put more stress and drains more resources than most other classes, even in proper group.

That is why I put that sort of gameplay on hold until I can get my PC&internet connection fixed/uppgraded cause it is super frustrating as any kind of lag is punished severely.

[Jaycub]

Ya positioning, use of RD/CW, and all that seems to be much more paramount on WH/WE because they lack the straight forward playstyle afforded by things like charge, pull/fetch, root M1 etc... And because a large portion of their DPS is really reliant on you to be at your opponents back.

Stealth on the surface seems simple enough but because it's bogged down by a pretty large cooldown and cast time, and requires you to be disengaged to really use it you really need to have good game sense and know whats going on to get the most out of it.


Does anything think WE/WH could use some balance changes? I spent a while thinking about what you could change on something like trial by pain but couldn't come up with much. Dragon Gun's discussion seems like it will become some kind of cooldown increaser, and nothing on the level shatter limbs was. Problem with that is you can't afford to spent 13 points in that tree on WH, and if it's not AoE it won't even be a meme spot in warbands like DPS RP/Z is.

I also see a sentiment of "wait for later tiers" for balance and that just seems to go against everything the servers team has been going for. I don't really think the with all the balance that's been going on we are just gonna see WH's take over WL's in a Sov environment and let WL's rot in hell like they did on live.

[Stmichael1989]

The problem with witch hunter (and this is from a 40/90 WH on live) is that they're designed counter-intuitively. Their thematic role in a fight is supposed to be stealthy assassin. Hit the enemies weak point and throw a wrench in the plan.

In reality, they're a jumbled mish-mash of abilities that don't compliment one another nor contribute to a cohesive class. They have no armor debuff to help with their finishers, DoTs, or auto attack. They only have one attack that completely ignores armor if you attack from behind, which is more tailored to attacking high armor targets like tanks - the very target they should be avoiding.

Their means of escape is also their means of initiating. Intuitively, stealth should be used to get into position and launch a surprise attack. Yet often times it's necessary to use stealth as a complement to their self punt in order to actually escape. Given that it has a 30 second cooldown from the time stealth ends, it's not likely it will be up when they need to escape.

On top of all that, every class except tanks have a means of countering a witch hunter, namely detaunt. Granted, every other class can be detaunted, but no other class loses their most valuable weapon - surprise. If a soft target detaunts any other DPS class, they switch targets and continue anew. Maybe they have to start their rotation again to apply necessary debuffs, but other than that it's just something they deal with. When a WH pops on their target, if they don't kill them before the knockdown, their chances of success plummet. They're operating without a guard or the rest of the focus fire train, they can't go back into stealth to try again on a different target, and if you're not fighting complete retards the whole enemy team knows you're there. You can't just switch targets, and unless you severely out-gear your target you won't be able to kill them through detaunt and healing.

[Panzerkasper]

The Dragon Gun change, if it comes, wont change a thing in the WH meta, since the BaL/HD spec will stay the best option in terms of damage output. EW is a wierd finisher, because it is more a defensive tool. Reduce to Toughness, Str and WS weakens more of the enemy offense then it does hurt its defense. A toughness debuff is not a huge deal and can be covered by a knight or slayer if really needed.
The next problem for WH as for any melee on order side in general is, that the range DDs are way too good and have a much easier time to burst a target since they dont need to deal with CC in the midst of a melee fight. Start burst -> range KD -> kill -> GG.

Groupwise the WE is still in the better spot because she has better tools for damage sustain after the opener has run out. Either you have WB, although a badly designed spell and should only be specced if you need a HD, will keep her burst on a good level or (if you have a Hd covered by a grp member) you have PA wich will do the same, because the WS buff gives you around 8-9% iirc extra armor pierce.

[kryss]

The Dragon Gun change, if it comes, wont change a thing in the WH meta, since the BaL/HD spec will stay the best option in terms of damage output. EW is a wierd finisher, because it is more a defensive tool. Reduce to Toughness, Str and WS weakens more of the enemy offense then it does hurt its defense. A toughness debuff is not a huge deal and can be covered by a knight or slayer if really needed.
The next problem for WH as for any melee on order side in general is, that the range DDs are way too good and have a much easier time to burst a target since they dont need to deal with CC in the midst of a melee fight. Start burst -> range KD -> kill -> GG.

Groupwise the WE is still in the better spot because she has better tools for damage sustain after the opener has run out. Either you have WB, although a badly designed spell and should only be specced if you need a HD, will keep her burst on a good level or (if you have a Hd covered by a grp member) you have PA wich will do the same, because the WS buff gives you around 8-9% iirc extra armor pierce.

I'm really looking forward to the Dragon Gun change (AND a good rework of the confession tree), but you are right: BaL/HD is indeed the best dmg output for a WH, whereas RB-Bal is the other solo (subpar) choice with a hard time against healers. Given the skills, trees and tactics available now, a WE is a little better in many aspects. I hope the devs will come up with something

[Panzerkasper]

I'm really looking forward to the Dragon Gun change (AND a good rework of the confession tree), but you are right: BaL/HD is indeed the best dmg output for a WH, whereas RB-Bal is the other solo (subpar) choice with a hard time against healers. Given the skills, trees and tactics available now, a WE is a little better in many aspects. I hope the devs will come up with something

I never understood sacrificing a HD, SoD and eventually Prolonged Confession (an even better Whirling Blade equivalent) for a 5 Sec parry buff and a Tree that is even more useless then the WE's Suffering.
All in all i don't think the difference between WH/WE is that huge, but like i said, the WH gets outclassed by superior range DDs.

[sotora]

WE & WH alongside Shammy & Archmage are propably closest balanced mirrors in game. That latest WH is worse than WE is getting tiring.

Both classes suffer conceptually and tools wise are in same place in meta.
I think there is more WE players than WH players (not that WH is unpopular) cause iconic Warhammer class and boobs.

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Anyway:

I have question for live players - some said that on live WH&WE shined once gear power increased noticeably, and as reason it was given that armor debuff provided by other classes is flat so it's less effective once armor number rise.

Is that really main reason?

How true is that reason was that higher stats pool improved position of WH/WE because it both increased their dps (better dmg scaling than most other classes) and reduced squischiness (improved more cause of initial very low armor&toughenss&resist naturally in those classes) ? Opinions?

[Azarael]

I also see a sentiment of "wait for later tiers" for balance and that just seems to go against everything the servers team has been going for. I don't really think the with all the balance that's been going on we are just gonna see WH's take over WL's in a Sov environment and let WL's rot in hell like they did on live.

Seems you are the only one who gets it. I'm so tired of seeing "oh later armor sets/values will fix" despite having repeated many many many many many times that I will not allow armor and stat inflation. These people need to forget about it because it is not going to happen.

[Aurandilaz]

I don't think WH/WE are really even supposed to have a role in "6v6 meta", as their specific role is to be glasscannon mdps that sneak from behind, hand out their burst and sneak back to the shadows; that's how their career functions.
It is very much NOT designed for prolonged combat with both teams going for prolonged combat tactics where one team simply outtanks/outheals the other team.
The classes are lone hunters and somewhat less suitable for group play, whereas the other mdps are not so good at being lone hunters.

I'm not even sure anything should be changed, because making WH/WE as suitable for meleetrains as maras/slayers/choppas/WLs is a very terrifying idea.

WE/WH are very situational, and it gives the class its specific favour that IMO makes them more fun to play.

Maybe one weakness that I can currently see is the +50 more crit dmg tactic, which is simply too good not to use, making that tree a must in every possible spec. I wouldn't want to nerf it, but maybe somehow give the other two trees on WH/WE some almost similarly good tactic, with hopefully there being 3 good tactics in 3 trees that are all equally wanted. Because as it is, this one tactic is simply too good not to be used, making the choices somewhat narrower when choosing specs.