Black Ork Adjustment

[Duukar]

After all this time away and still BOs have no LONG ST punt? This and a rework or We'z Bigger is all this class needs.

You have the beefiest + AOE heavy tank in the game with no Long ST punt and a dead specline above 9 as its main tanking tree.

Just fix it already......

[Bozzax]

Listing BOs best traits doesn’t make et it weaker or stronger compared to other destruction tanks.

Currently, 6v6: BG, Roam: chosen, Wb: Chosens

SnB Bo … WAS ……a good assist tank for roam and wb (just like SM currently is)

Changes …
-THC snb for damage (burst that destruction typically lack)
- CD increaser (was an important kog in ST disable/interrupt on tanky heals)
- Stacking 2x weaponskill buff (removed)
- 40% aoe snare (not 20% like now which is redundant)
- “instant” morale armour debuff or root (now slower)

The snare control was important for group roam and wb the current version isn’t rly needed bc of covernant. Even back then only a handful knew how to play it at a level where bringing one over a chosen made sense (Chosen is nerfed as well I know)

Nowadays the class is the least important of dest tanks with meme 2H spec that doesn’t even work in the main 2H setting (6v6)

The rework of BO was carless and wo understanding the class and how to play it

[Culexus]

As much as I share your love for the BO IVendettaI, the other posters here are right, we offer nothing in a group setting that would make us a better pick over Chosen or Blackguard. It's maybe worth having one in a wb for the niche situations where aoe punt is needed, but that's about it. BO is a fun class, but not a particularly useful one in high end group play.

[IVendettaI]

You missed a fair share of points here.
1. You don't even know the skill. Its 30 seconds cooldown, 20 seconds duration then 10 seconds debuff. Nullified completely by root break, so not really worth mentioning. Now, while it's certainly impressive, 6k armor and 800 resistances is not really needed. Normal tanks are already sitting at 5k+ and the additional 1k changes very little, if someone plans to try killing a tank armor will be negated one way or another. And every tank has ways to counter it, be it morales, potions, active abilities or raw stats. You can't reach 90% parry on blork, you get to about 50% with all buffs without counting weapon skill. So about as much as any tank +10% from the tactic and you wot while it is active. Argument can be made that you don't have to use parry buff weapon from bbbe, but, again, not a huge advantage. So, as i mentioned, your defensive capabilities are not that impressive, bg is probably still more durable in 2h spec unless against casters.
2. Blork damage advantage is not enough to compensate lack of ST punt. Everyone can deal 100% more damage to someone without a guard. You CANNOT remove guard. So you don't provide this effect. And you don't do anywhere close to enough damage to crunch through guard if there is any healing involved. Loudmouth is amazing, yes. Hitting guarded targets is not, and no matter how many damage tactics you slot, even FO, you still won't change more than any other tank will with a punt. That's two of the omitted points, where you attempted to convince me that blork doing more damage is a huge value.
3. If your resistance buff has a timer visible on buffhead and relies on 25% chance to proc IF SOMEONE IS HITTING YOU (the tank) then you have no resistance buff. And situation is marginally better with armor. Which means that the chances of it being up are higher and the bonus is bigger, but you don't have any other potions to drink in place of armor one. So you will be using it anyway. As a side note, you get 1k+ blue rare bottles pots, but noone really bothers so let's say they don't exist just for you. Da greenest is the worst of the three bellows, its inconsistent in three different ways and easy to play around in closed environments for anyone who cares. Oh, and chosen provides the same resistance buff... but consistently, permanently and with debuffing enemy resistances as an extra. Healing from bellow is hilariously low, numbers look like its more than it really is a it procs for full value on unharmed players. Blork damage will kill random pugs but its nowhere near close to be threatening to a semi decent group. Yes stat steal is great. No, people can't use other potions cause its not reliable enough. In blob, while spamming AoE, i was very often not getting all buffs. Its amazing debuff tool, yes. And waaagh! Is the best ability corp debuff.
But, guess what, you can take both those things on snb spec. It's viable, reasonably nice to play and we discussed that like 3 pages ago. You will run stat steal on 2h blork, probably, due to the amount of points you already invest into the tree, but it can be done with snb and it will be working much better in orvr. And, to finish this: all tanks have a ton of utility. Blork just gets less. No cost spells don't matter, ap economy needs to be maintained regardless for the dps classes. All tanks have kd. Silence is rarely useful and specifically AoE silence is never useful if you can't use it at range. You are trying to justify the class by bringing things that you can get with any other tank, easier and with less opportunity cost.
Try playing other classes, really. It's good to have a wider perspective on the game than tunnel vision.

I know my skill very well: 20 seconds duration, 30 seconds cooldown. So, it's active every 10 seconds. Since the cooldown starts when you cast the spell, not when it ends, when your buff ends (after 20 seconds), you have 10 seconds of cooldown left. Therefore, I do know the skill quite well, probably even better than you do. The debuff is a reduction in movement speed.

6000+ armor and 800+ resistances mean nothing? Well, I can't do anything about it if you find it useless. It's probably because people from the Destruction faction think like you do and believe they get destroyed by the Order faction! And certainly not because of "Oh, but the Order classes are better than ours! #golem." With over 6000 armor, you have more than 150% armor. When you have more than 100% armor, it helps counter debuffs and armor penetration from your opponent, maintaining a 75% reduction in physical damage. But I suppose you wouldn't understand that.

800+% resistances allow you to have 50% resistances. Yes, it's diminishing returns, so with a debuff of 200-300, you'll only lose 10%, but it still allows you to maintain around 40% resistances quite easily. And since it's the only direct defense against Mages, 40% is pretty good.

The BO is the tank with the HIGHEST blocking potential in Destruction. It can have more than the others. I crafted a build with over 80% block. The BG and the Chosen can barely reach 50%. So, no, you're wrong. Again. The Chosen is a tank focused on parry. The BG, on the other hand, is more focused on toughness, and it can also have a lot of parry. But when it comes to blocking, the BO has 3 ways to increase it, which are all cumulative, and 2 of them also provide parry.

Does the BO's damage advantage not compensate for the lack of a single-target punt? You keep using this argument, and it makes me understand a lot about what RoR players who think they are good are like. The BO has a silence and can have a knockdown. A guard has a range of 30 feet (barely 10 meters). You can easily AoE punt a single target, though it's more complex but possible. It's funny because, according to what you're saying, it's impossible to do well with Black Orks. I wonder how we, Da Freebootaz, manage to compete with all the other guilds in the game that use mixed warbands without Black Orks. It's very likely that you are mistaken, to put it politely, because in my mind, I've insulted you countless times already.

Da Greenest! gives a 25% buff for 10 seconds, and you have time to use it. The armor buff is 100% chance. The Chosen's buff is twice less potent, and its resistance debuff is also twice less powerful than its buff. So, no, it's not the same thing. The heal is more powerful than indicated, but I agree it could use a boost. However, it's still viable and adds extra survivability.

I play as an SNB DPS. So, in fact, I defend the 2H because they are viable, and you are saying nonsense, not because I play them and feel targeted.

I also have other characters, and I enjoy experimenting with builds with a friend in my spare time. I can assure you that you don't know what you're talking about, and you are biased. This will be my last message to you. You are wasting my time. I have to translate to understand what you're saying, and I have to translate what I write to accurately represent my thoughts in French. My English is too limited for me to do it on my own.

[Bozzax]

Who gives a f ... about blocking potential?

No tank has problems surviving and when under REAL pressure BG M1 clns or Chosen M2 heal dwarf anything a BO has.

Also when it comes to avoidance both chosen and BG have way more passive melee avoidance then BO can dream of.

Guess why no sane tank use m2 block

Even with 100% block it is the squishy no util option for your group.

[CyunUnderis]

@IVendettaI, the problem with "You Wot" is that you have a downtime of 10 sc where you are "unprotected". Sure, you are tankier than Chosen(+25% parry every 15sc, that you can refresh every 10sc)/BG (30% when 100 Hate) with this buff, but during this short 10sc, every good team will kill you. M1 Zealot + Maradeur Armor debuff during the CD of "You Wot" on a KD you'll die (except if you play with Detaunt from Warlord).

And as others already mention it, BG brings more utility to the table (Undefendable AoE snare, 10% crit, good armor debuff, debuff crit and a punt for offensive/defensive aspect - and no, AoE punt is not a valid option because you'll give immunity to enemy tanks, so DPS will be harder to kill during the immunity timer). Chosen is mandatory to counter Knight's auras and for the free punt. So maybe you can show how you can make BO perform as 2H, in 6v6/SC against premade.

[IVendettaI]

There's only one guy who brought up the fact that something needs to be done for the Black Ork 2H, but that wasn't the topic of the discussion. I'm proposing my suggestions on what could be changed, so create your own topic to do the same with your unrelated ideas. Whether you're convinced that Black Ork is below par, it's really none of my concern.

I provided arguments, but you don't want to hear them, and you keep talking about the same thing over and over, which wasn't the initial topic. I think I've said enough. You keep criticizing without contributing anything. I can't even understand why you come here to vent your frustration when you don't like the class and think it's better elsewhere. It's quite absurd. Why bother coming to this topic?

"BG is better, no doubt." Great, what did you contribute to the topic? Nothing, just showing off. It's pathetic.

And in reality, when we look closely, all you want to do with these changes is basically turn it into a copy of Chosen or BG. Even more pathetic.

This isn't the topic's focus. So, get a grip. Anyway, I've made my suggestion. If I have to deal with everyone who's here to throw tantrums because they're not happy with the way BO is, I'll pass. I don't really feel like debating such a topic, as it's not the subject (once again, if you still haven't understood).

[Cyrylius]

Snip

Setting aside personal arguments and insults, which would maybe in a different situation make a discussion with you an unpleasant experience.
You, once again, missed all my points. Oftentimes hilariously. And you refuse to understand parts of my text walls in a very frustrating way. All of that combined makes this conversation insanely tiring.
It doesn't matter however. I can still answer every single thing you posted with fairly decent counters.

You wrote in your previous post, and i quote here, every 20 seconds, all for 10 seconds. With Chop Fasta, it's every 5 seconds. That's not what you said in your latest post, meaning you either checked it or can't remember. Either way, my point stands.

In addition to speaking in a very incomprehensible way, you don't seem to understand how armor penetration works. After basic debuffs 6k armor gets reduced to 3,5k, which is then bypassed with weapon skill and flat effects. Assuming 70% penetration 6k armor is effectively 1k, 5k armor is effectively 700. Effective difference is only 300. And that's assuming the other tank doesn't just negate the difference with armor talismans.

You get the same resistances with a chosen, aka. Capped at maximum value of 40%.

We are talking about parry. Not block.

Yes, punting guard is almost impossible with a blork and actually impossibly with a 2h blork. Ask your guild leader, i once spent half an hour talking with him about blork punt tactic and I know his opinion on the matter.

I really don't care about your insults, considering your understanding of literally everything in this thread.

This part is wrong, chosen resistance buff is equal. Also armor doesn't work like this. No bellow works on 100% chance.

Snb dps spec was killed with removal of three but combo from snb spec.

I'm very happy that this was your last message. I can assure you that every single word you wrote is wrong. I would consider time spent trying to patiently explain you why you are wrong wasted, but fortunately it will also be seen by everyone other than you who decides to check this thread, which will hopefully prevent devs from listening seriously to your balance ideas. And, as a parting words, English is also not my first language and i don't make any fuss over that fact. Maybe neither should you.

[Detangler]

Shield BO has been the most underwhelming tank I've played of the 5 out of 6 tanks in the game. I haven't tried the knight, but i'm pretty sure i can theorycraft quite well considering how close it is to the Chosen.

From what I've read in this thread, all the positives about shield BO are just abilities that are either also covered by other tanks or are just ever so slightly higher value (but more difficult to implement) than what other classes can provide, such as:

Aoe str debuff - chosen has it constantly, BO has to reapply it.
Aoe snare - BG has higher value and cone 40 feet, making it easier to catch runners. But BO gets a bonus 20% cast time increaser. so a 2 sec cast becomes a 2.4 second cast. Again, barely noticeable and doesn't affect instant cast stuff.
Aoe Corp debuff - Chosen has it constantly at a lower level, BO has to reapply.
Cooldown increaser - single target 5 second increase for 10 seconds on a 20 second duration, SH has it as cone AoE 3 second increase for same duration/CD.
Da Greenest - 300 more armor than what an armor pot provides. After armor penetration you're talking an extra 100 armor or so. Magical resistances a Chosen has it up constantly and for all 3 types while you have to wait and hope for RNG to proc the same stat resistance.
Da Biggest Stat steal - you have to spam aoe constantly to get all stat steal stats up, otherwise you may be stealing intelligence or willpower for your team. Great. Also its lowering random stats from one person here and there in large groups, where a Chosen will debuff EVERYONE around them.
Da Toughest healing - 300 or so hp every 10 seconds. Negligible healing. You could waste a tactic slot and double this if you felt like it, but why?

This wall of text is long enough, but BO really needs a single target punt above all else. The most important thing outside of guard to increase damage on squishie targets or unload pressure on one of your squishies, and BO can't do it. So many times I'm standing around with my shield with nothing impactful to do because my CD increaser is.... on cooldown. 2h BO at least has some really big hits to help on the assist train (still not real DPS class pressure, but more than other tanks), but shield BO is just.... there.

[normanis]

big swing is very good. no need it change. sm dont have such possibility reduce destro str by x . u use it also for war below triger. similar to sm byt sm has spirit debuff (only good for very few classes) while str debuff work for any melle class. u have 1050 str after u get hited by big swing u have 970str. tanks has 150 str (aproximely) so yes dont touch big swing its already good.(chosen dont need run str aura)

Big Swing need damage up, these damages are ridiculous, and if you play Da Biggest! lots of spells aren't really effective. All stats debuff spells need a change of the debuff in question. Like Weapon Skill => Armor penetration

Or, Da Biggest! give new stats and debuff :

Strength => Melee Power
Weapon Skill => Armor Penetration
Toughness => %damage reduction/%incoming damage
Initiative => less incoming crit/more incoming crit
Willpower => more healing/less healing
Balistic skill => Ranged Power
intelligence => Magical Power

But with Melee/Ranged/Magical Power you can cumul with potion so it's really cheat haha, so i think the first idea is more fair

u do understand that sm also will have such benefits
also u run dabigest/nature blade for iniative debuff
u already has crimson death on bg. giving same abilitie to black orc. (u can spam da bigest from t1 (14) lvl) make 2h bg even more not welcome in rvr. and force 2h bg go snb because snb black orc do bg job .
u cant just ask buff for black orc and ignore ather tanks. its make ather tanks less viable.