Wanting to play BG

[peterthepan3]

TBH a 2H DPS BO is just as squishy (if not moreso) than a 2H DPS BG.

[TenTonHammer]

You can also go for something like this if you have trouble with BWs or DPS AMs:

http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... 3:;0:0:0:0:

If i am a BG or any tank facing BW's and AM's i would use a shield for HTL!

Between HTL!, BG's high base WP and Willpower buff, and shielding anger BG can haver near 100% magic immunity

furthermore i am disapointed you didnt slot endless presuit. Shielding Anger + Endless presuit is core for mage crusher BG

[Penril]

You can also go for something like this if you have trouble with BWs or DPS AMs:

http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... 3:;0:0:0:0:

If i am a BG or any tank facing BW's and AM's i would use a shield for HTL!

Between HTL!, BG's high base WP and Willpower buff, and shielding anger BG can haver near 100% magic immunity

furthermore i am disapointed you didnt slot endless presuit. Shielding Anger + Endless presuit is core for mage crusher BG

I told him to swap gear depending on who he faces (ie, use a shield sometimes) but he refuses.

100% agree with EP. But he wants to DPS, so I kept FwF, UF and EB (even though I'm not really a fan of EB). And of course SK is mandatory in any BG spec.

TBH a 2H DPS BO is just as squishy (if not moreso) than a 2H DPS BG.

Definitely squishier.

You dont go 2h DPS on BO/CH. And SnB BO can outdps 2h BG ST dps wise becuase skullthumper is cool.

And it's not even just about 2h BG, the shield spec just as bad in comparison to CH/BO

Debatable. For Skullthumper to really shine, you need to have several people assisting on your targer AND getting several crits, and ofc you can (will) be detaunted. The BG on the other hand doesn't need to worry about detaunts.

The only reason SnB BO is better than BG is because of morale pump, agreed on that. Otherwise they are pretty balanced. Sure, they have a much better AoE snare, but that's not because BG's is bad, but because it is uncleansable by WP. Just like Order can easily keep destro snared because KotBS/IB are uncleansable by Dok.

But that begs the question: are some classes really much better than others? or is it that some classes are "worse" than others because of some "OP" classes/skills? This affects pretty much every class (Shaman/AM can't cleanse BW/Sorcs, Magus/Engies get insta-cleansed by Dok/WP, etc.).

[TenTonHammer]

The only reason SnB BO is better than BG is because of morale pump, agreed on that. Otherwise they are pretty balanced.

Superior due to stat steal or did i miss that meta shift and it is no longer a factor in T4?

[Penril]

The only reason SnB BO is better than BG is because of morale pump, agreed on that. Otherwise they are pretty balanced.

Superior due to stat steal or did i miss that meta shift and it is no longer a factor in T4?

It was never the stat steal; it was only the Initiative steal. It was incredibly OP in T2 since it increased your target's chance to be crit to around 300% (NOT by 300%... TO 300%). Much less so in T3 because the increase was around 25%. Now in T4 and with people running Annihilator/Mercenary, it isn't OP anymore. Go and test it for yourself, hit a friend with it and check how much his chance to be crit got increased. It won't be more than 20%, which is something a KotBS has on 24/7 while the BO has to wait for a proc (and to have that specific stat stolen). Strong? Oh yeah, it definitely is still strong. Just not OP anymore.

Use this calculator if you want. Check how much your chance to be crit increases at lvl 20 and at lvl 40 if you lose around 100 Initiative.

https://tools.idrinth.de/tank/?a0l=40&d ... 0pm=0&dN=0

At level 26, I was able to reduce the Initiative of a well-geared mara to 8. That meant a 306% chance to be crit. At lvl 40, it is pretty much impossible to reduce someone's Initiative to zero.

[Jaycub]

Big brawlin is huge too, unless you removed it along with slice through BO will always be mandatory. BG aoe snare doesnt have near the uptime and is group cleansed by WP. BO aoe snare is uncleanseable.

[footpatrol2]

So I have a deep love for the Blackguard. It was my main for a very long long time and my highets RR charactor.

I know this is a mixed group thing on justifying how to bring blackguards into mixed groups.

I'm going to show a trick that could have been conducted by having a same race dark elf group with 2 black guards and reasons on why you would want to take 2 blackguards. I'll put this in a spoiler to not derail the thread.

Spoiler:

You take 2 dark rites Dok's with 1001 blessings m4 slotted. Minimal requirement of spec looks like this.
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=dok ... ;;;0:0:0:0:

1001 blessings use to last 30 sec's. Now 10 sec's. Assume the 30 sec duration. Have two Dok's slot restored motivation tactic. That tactic is a morale feed of 250 morale on a instant cast hot Soul infusion. Restored motivation tactic doesn't operate like that anymore. Anyway take 2 Loathing BG's up too the khaine's blessing morale 4.

Spec looks like this.
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... ;;;0:0:0:0:

Here's how this group works.
Morale feed one of the Dark rites DOk's to thier morale 4 1001 blessing. Start your 1001 blessing cycle. You could have 100% upkeep on 1001 blessing due to morale pumps. This gives the group thier resist buff that the black guard lacks. This gives the group 25% additional block/parry/dodge/disrupt.

The two black guards base block is probably around 30%. 1001 blessings adds 25% for 55% base block at all times depending if you can keep the 1001 blessing cycle up.

After you morale feed one of the dok's to thier morale 4 you morale feed one of the blackguards to thier morale 4. Khaine's blessing is a heal to the entire group for 800 per block. Maybe it gets higher if you spec into it. It could be 1200 heal per block. Anyway Now you have your Blackguard to his khaines blessing.

If your group is taking a lot of damage have one black guard pop khaine's blessing m4 and both blackguards pop non shall pass ability. This increases your block by 50% for a total of 105%. If your guarded target is taking a lot of damage and your blackguards are close to thier guarded target your taking a lot of guard damage. All that guard damage is turning into blocks. All those blocks are turning into 800 to 1200 heals. Have both blackguards use non shall pass ability. Which means they are healing the group for either 1600 per block or 2400 per block collectively for 10 sec's. Your group basically becomes immune to damage during this time period due to the intense healing your blackguards are doing for 10 sec's.

You only used 1 khaine's blessing. You can morale pump your other blackguard to thier morale 4. You can do this trick every 30 seconds. None shall pass has a 30 sec cooldown. None shall pass ability is So low in the loathing tree that it could be picked up in your off-spec.

In addition to how the wave of scorn ability is set up with a 10 sec duration and a 20 sec cooldown. You can keep targets permantly snared.

This is opinion, but this is how and why those abilities are placed where they were. In my opinion the blackguard got ruined by removing the restored motivation morale booster tactic on the Dok. In my opinion, this is how intergroup dependant this game is.

In addition morale gain is wrong on RoR. Its slower then what it was on the mythic servers for a full 6 man group.

I've made a suggestion in a different thread that 1001 blessings only affect one faction and have it returned to its 30 sec duration. I also suggested that the restored motivation tactic only affect dark elf players. I suggested this to help stop mix group exploits. Mythic decided to just get away from this. This was possible at one time in the game. Hopefully we can get some of this stuff back.

[Penril]

Big brawlin is huge too, unless you removed it along with slice through BO will always be mandatory. BG aoe snare doesnt have near the uptime and is group cleansed by WP. BO aoe snare is uncleanseable.

Yes it is huge. But again, is it because BO is way better than BG? Or is it because WP can't cleanse the BO, and Dok can't cleanse KotBS who also has an AoE snare?

In my eyes, it is not that BO>BG. It just happens that Dok/WP/KotBs MAKE the BO a better choice than BG. And that's because those 3 classes are the strongest in their archetype groups and pretty much mandatory. I would fix those 3 classes first before I buffed any other class.

[Jaycub]

That's pretty neat synergy, maybe one day the server will have enough population to support fun warbands like that on a regular enough basis. Right now it feels like there is like 2-3 guilds that can even put together a full warband themselves.

[Jaycub]

Big brawlin is huge too, unless you removed it along with slice through BO will always be mandatory. BG aoe snare doesnt have near the uptime and is group cleansed by WP. BO aoe snare is uncleanseable.

Yes it is huge. But again, is it because BO is way better than BG? Or is it because WP can't cleanse the BO, and Dok can't cleanse KotBS who also has an AoE snare?

In my eyes, it is not that BO>BG. It just happens that Dok/WP/KotBs MAKE the BO a better choice than BG. And that's because those 3 classes are the strongest in their archetype groups and pretty much mandatory. I would fix those 3 classes first before I buffed any other class.

Don't think making it group cleansable would help, would just hurt knight a bit more. BO has no CD on AoE snare (restricted only to stance dancing), doesnt require a target either. Very easily reapplied after it's grouped cleansed and actually might even be considered a buff to make it cleansable as it's more fodder that is easily reapplied that now the WP is cleansing through.