Countering zerging in T2/3

[adei]

suppose the simplest solution to counter zerging is to encourage smaller comps/parties. sure, the people who rely on 10000 people supporting them to make kills/get rewards may leave in protest, but i'd wager there'd be an influx of competitive players from other games (who actually enjoy real PvP) to take their place if that became the case = veri veri elitist intense PvP calibre, fam still believe this has the potential to become so much greater than it already is, and encouraging people to quit facestomping the opposing faction by merit of 10x their numbers (or letting them leave and other good PvPers take their place) is a good start.

Can you stop, I mean seriously. You keep talking about how this game is competitive and always relate to skilless zerging, I think its time you realised that zerging is the game, no matter how much you want to change it, it will always remain. Also you seem to jump from 'RoR is competitive blah blah' to 'No competition here, looking for more 6 mans to fight'.

News flash - And to paraphrase geni a bit here. Why on earth would we cater to the handful of 6 mans, than to the thousands of other players that don't participate in that playstyle. If there was going to be an influx of competitive players then it would have already happened, as it stands, they all stopped playing because what a surprise, they can't get fulfilment for a competitive aspect here, it was tried, and it failed pretty hard.

And as far as the facestomping **** goes, there is no difference in a zerg stomping a smaller zerg, than there is a 6 man stomping random puggers or smaller groups, so again stop trying to get across this message that just because you want to enjoy your evening with a bit of relaxed fighting and trying to secure the zone, that you are a skilless, mindless zergling. WB's make this game, and will always do so. If we cater to the game you want, we will have 30 people playing that refuse to fight each other based off epeen and then just kite back to wc's or alt f4.

Real pvp is all subjective, if you find playing in a 6 man against other 6 mans where you can cater to the enemy team by using counter builds and using cheese tactics is real pvp, good for you, I did that years ago, nothing wrong with that. But your view on real pvp, is not what others share.

[navis]

What about at 200% AAO allowing the outnumbered faction to pick up champion pets at the keep. Big ass pets that do a **** ton of damage.

Would be a good defensive or offensive weapon. I would like to see these things at Fortress, later, hence they would be more effective in your home-turf zones.

[navis]

[quote="Alubert"
Give back "quick escape" and Odjira and small group can fight against zerg.[/quote]Except those things actually have a opposite effect, when even using defensive abilities or CC abilities, causes the attack to gain a speed buff.

These abilities are really bad combination for Melee players and a online game like this which often, already has many issues resulting from lag stuttering.

[peterthepan3]

suppose the simplest solution to counter zerging is to encourage smaller comps/parties. sure, the people who rely on 10000 people supporting them to make kills/get rewards may leave in protest, but i'd wager there'd be an influx of competitive players from other games (who actually enjoy real PvP) to take their place if that became the case = veri veri elitist intense PvP calibre, fam still believe this has the potential to become so much greater than it already is, and encouraging people to quit facestomping the opposing faction by merit of 10x their numbers (or letting them leave and other good PvPers take their place) is a good start.

Can you stop, I mean seriously. You keep talking about how this game is competitive and always relate to skilless zerging, I think its time you realised that zerging is the game, no matter how much you want to change it, it will always remain. Also you seem to jump from 'RoR is competitive blah blah' to 'No competition here, looking for more 6 mans to fight'.

News flash - And to paraphrase geni a bit here. Why on earth would we cater to the handful of 6 mans, than to the thousands of other players that don't participate in that playstyle. If there was going to be an influx of competitive players then it would have already happened, as it stands, they all stopped playing because what a surprise, they can't get fulfilment for a competitive aspect here, it was tried, and it failed pretty hard.

And as far as the facestomping **** goes, there is no difference in a zerg stomping a smaller zerg, than there is a 6 man stomping random puggers or smaller groups, so again stop trying to get across this message that just because you want to enjoy your evening with a bit of relaxed fighting and trying to secure the zone, that you are a skilless, mindless zergling. WB's make this game, and will always do so. If we cater to the game you want, we will have 30 people playing that refuse to fight each other based off epeen and then just kite back to wc's or alt f4.

Real pvp is all subjective, if you find playing in a 6 man against other 6 mans where you can cater to the enemy team by using counter builds and using cheese tactics is real pvp, good for you, I did that years ago, nothing wrong with that. But your view on real pvp, is not what others share.

if you bother to read what I said, I want the game to promote skill-based PvP and actively encourage people to move away from the zerg. I don't care what direction the game goes in as it very evident and apparent how anyone wishing to improve on what is considered the 'status quo' is treated on this server, hence why a lot of people are leaving/taking breaks in the lolelitist6man scene. I honestly don't see how you could have misinterpreted that.

Sorry but there is simply no subjectivity between zerging and other forms of PvP.

I know a lot of people who would play RoR if the game wasn't so zergcentric and promoted different types of PvP that depend more on an individual's actions and merits with their chosen class. Dunno where you're getting that from.

i know your take on 6v6/6mans in general so you don't have to rehash it here, mate.

Can you give me an example of when I have ever said that RoR is competitive, please? I may have mentioned WAYS that I believe would make it more competitive, or may have tried to organise stuff with competitive PvP in mind (my failed 6v6 tourney!); but I've never said warhammer is a competitive game. And the fact that you openly say 'zerging is the game, and it will remain that way' speaks volumes to me. The game is about PVP, and large-scale PvP IS the foundation. i'm not disputing that. But zerg is NOT PvP - FACT. If anyone HONESTLY believes zerg equates to PvP then they must have never played any other PvP game in their life.

It's funny how you criticise me for assuming all WB players are skilless when that isn't the case, I just feel that people that enjoy zerging others down/defend zerging in its current form and oppose any suggestions aimed at countering zerging don't really deserved to be taken seriously. Aza's opinions on zerging are perfectly clear, and a lot of people think this game could do with an overhaul.

'If we cater to the game you want, we will have 30 people playing that refuse to fight each other based off epeen and then just kite back to wc's or alt f4.' - complete strawman. Way to derail. You haven't actually taken part in any of this sort of PvP to the best of my knowledge, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt - but your opinions on, and apparent disregard to, 6v6 are getting monotonous and boring. If you have taken part in this stuff, then I don't know how you think it revolves around 'cheese tactics' any more than any other guise of PvP in this game; and countering your enemy team's composition is kinda normal...


I'll refrain from posting anymore in this thread. I've expressed my views, so that's that.

[adei]

Spoiler:

suppose the simplest solution to counter zerging is to encourage smaller comps/parties. sure, the people who rely on 10000 people supporting them to make kills/get rewards may leave in protest, but i'd wager there'd be an influx of competitive players from other games (who actually enjoy real PvP) to take their place if that became the case = veri veri elitist intense PvP calibre, fam still believe this has the potential to become so much greater than it already is, and encouraging people to quit facestomping the opposing faction by merit of 10x their numbers (or letting them leave and other good PvPers take their place) is a good start.

Can you stop, I mean seriously. You keep talking about how this game is competitive and always relate to skilless zerging, I think its time you realised that zerging is the game, no matter how much you want to change it, it will always remain. Also you seem to jump from 'RoR is competitive blah blah' to 'No competition here, looking for more 6 mans to fight'.

News flash - And to paraphrase geni a bit here. Why on earth would we cater to the handful of 6 mans, than to the thousands of other players that don't participate in that playstyle. If there was going to be an influx of competitive players then it would have already happened, as it stands, they all stopped playing because what a surprise, they can't get fulfilment for a competitive aspect here, it was tried, and it failed pretty hard.

And as far as the facestomping **** goes, there is no difference in a zerg stomping a smaller zerg, than there is a 6 man stomping random puggers or smaller groups, so again stop trying to get across this message that just because you want to enjoy your evening with a bit of relaxed fighting and trying to secure the zone, that you are a skilless, mindless zergling. WB's make this game, and will always do so. If we cater to the game you want, we will have 30 people playing that refuse to fight each other based off epeen and then just kite back to wc's or alt f4.

Real pvp is all subjective, if you find playing in a 6 man against other 6 mans where you can cater to the enemy team by using counter builds and using cheese tactics is real pvp, good for you, I did that years ago, nothing wrong with that. But your view on real pvp, is not what others share.

if you bother to read what I said, I want the game to promote skill-based PvP and actively encourage people to move away from the zerg. I don't care what direction the game goes in as it very evident and apparent how anyone wishing to improve on what is considered the 'status quo' is treated on this server, hence why a lot of people are leaving/taking breaks in the lolelitist6man scene. I honestly don't see how you could have misinterpreted that.

Sorry but there is simply no subjectivity between zerging and other forms of PvP.

I know a lot of people who would play RoR if the game wasn't so zergcentric and promoted different types of PvP that depend more on an individual's actions and merits with their chosen class. Dunno where you're getting that from.

i know your take on 6v6/6mans in general so you don't have to rehash it here, mate.

Can you give me an example of when I have ever said that RoR is competitive, please? I may have mentioned WAYS that I believe would make it more competitive, or may have tried to organise stuff with competitive PvP in mind (my failed 6v6 tourney!); but I've never said warhammer is a competitive game. And the fact that you openly say 'zerging is the game, and it will remain that way' speaks volumes to me. The game is about PVP, and large-scale PvP IS the foundation. i'm not disputing that. But zerg is NOT PvP - FACT. If anyone HONESTLY believes zerg equates to PvP then they must have never played any other PvP game in their life.

It's funny how you criticise me for assuming all WB players are skilless when that isn't the case, I just feel that people that enjoy zerging others down/defend zerging in its current form and oppose any suggestions aimed at countering zerging don't really deserved to be taken seriously. Aza's opinions on zerging are perfectly clear, and a lot of people think this game could do with an overhaul.

'If we cater to the game you want, we will have 30 people playing that refuse to fight each other based off epeen and then just kite back to wc's or alt f4.' - complete strawman. Way to derail. You haven't actually taken part in any of this sort of PvP to the best of my knowledge, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt - but your opinions on, and apparent disregard to, 6v6 are getting monotonous and boring.


I'll refrain from posting anymore in this thread. I've expressed my views, so that's that.

Sigh.

I do bother to read what you say sadly, as I always seem to have to. You want the game to promote skill based pvp and get people away from the zerg, ok so you want a game with a limited amount of skills and set builds to move away from zergs which is the main focus of the game - i.e to lock zones and get to cities.

There is ZERO difference between a zerg killing a smaller group, and a smaller group killing solo players, which happens all the damn time.

Congrats on knowing people that would return, I know people that wouldn't, guess we got that needless point out of the way?

What you think my take on 6 mans is, and what it actually is, is different. I have played this aspect of the game and have my own views on it, I don't have to make sure to mention it in every damn thread I make, or in every single chat channel I'm apart of. You however do it consistently, and it's why I'm replying to you now, because I'm calling you out on your buillshit here. pal.

When have you said RoR is competitive? - Guys please join me in an obligatory facepalm, this really deserves no response due to the hilarity of it. Zerging is not pvp? Well its players fighting players, that is the definition of player vs player, that is ORvR. Whether you want to admit it or not, zerging/wb play is always the main aspect of any ORvR game, whether it can be changed will be seen, but I highly doubt it.

Of course I criticise you, like I said I'm calling you out on your bullshit here, you do it on forums and you do it in game, constantly berate those that do it and treat them unfairly, always targeting the select guilds that do it, so yes I'm criticising you and see nothing wrong with it. Aza's stance is clear yes, does not mean everyone has to agree with it, or that people should, he will try to design a way to battle this and that's good, doesn't mean we can't have different views on the matter. So if destro have 5 organised WB's in order to lock a zone its zerging.. well sorry guys that order couldn't manage to get guilds together to combat an organised destro alliance... we can just say they zerged.

I have taken apart of small scale pvp, so ill give you the benefit of the doubt on ignorance. My opinions are perfectly valid on the matter, there are but a couple of guilds that don't do this. Perhaps I should look over the 6v6 caledor woods videos you have? Perhaps rip a section from your stream? Or even grab some of my own footage to prove that this happens every....single....time.... It's always cheese tactic, and consider you used it to try and skyrocket your guild up here on the forums.. damn that's another facepalm right there.

There's a reason im derailing this thread to respond to you, because I want you to know, and others of similar nature, that guess what, we get it! Yes you don't like zerging, we get that you think the game should play in other way, but for the love of god do not bring up the same damn stuff in every thread that is made, and don't translate it into game bashing those who do it, trolling is one thing....

[peterthepan3]

Ah man I said I wouldn't respond but I couldn't resist the bait - especially from you, good sir!

I do bother to read what you say sadly, as I always seem to have to. You want the game to promote skill based pvp and get people away from the zerg, ok so you want a game with a limited amount of skills and set builds to move away from zergs which is the main focus of the game - i.e to lock zones and get to cities.

* Strawman, strawman, strawman! You're inferring very nonsensical things!
* I want a game that promotes skill-based PvP: Zerg does not promote skill-based PvP, opting for the 'kill them by force of impossible odds' approach by its very nature. Capiche?!
* Limited amount of skills? Wut? Small-scale has just as many viable options as large-scale does, and to the best of my knowledge a class maintains the same amount of skills regardless of what type of PvP the individual decides to do? o_0
* Moving away from the zerg is a good thing: if you can justify why promoting/maintaining the zerg approach is a good thing for PvP, I am all ears!
* Again: zerging doesn't equate to large-scale RvR. As I'm sure certain guild members of WB guilds will testify, there is a lot of intensity in 24 v 24/48 v 48 battles. I have seen a lot of footage on yt, even recent stuff from Kings Own. I reiterate, my good sir: zerg does not refer to equal-numbered large-scale PvP in general.

There is ZERO difference between a zerg killing a smaller group, and a smaller group killing solo players, which happens all the damn time.

* Other forms of PvP: 1v1, 6v6, 12v12, 48v48. All of these are not zergs as the numbers are balanced.
* Did i say there was a difference? Naturally, when we are talking about 'zerg' here MOST people refer to players using overwhelming numbers to win. It's the first time I've seen a 'small group' referenced as a zerg, but I digress. I get the point you're making, i.e. that in both situations, the outcome is hopeless for the receiving end, but it adds nothing to this debate whatsoever which pertains to overwhelming amounts of players using choke points and spamming aoe in lagtopia to win with 0 chance whatsoever for anyone to reply in kind unless they bring their own numbers - which creates a clusterfudge.

Congrats on knowing people that would return, I know people that wouldn't, guess we got that needless point out of the way?

* The point seemed to go over your head, but nevermind... good one, mate! Curious as to why at least some of those people wouldn't

What you think my take on 6 mans is, and what it actually is, is different. I have played this aspect of the game and have my own views on it, I don't have to make sure to mention it in every damn thread I make, or in every single chat channel I'm apart of. You however do it consistently, and it's why I'm replying to you now, because I'm calling you out on your buillshit here. pal.

* Sorry but your view on 6mans is all too evident on this server, especially amongst those who partake in small-scale competitive skrims. You mention me talking crap on the forums and ingame, yet prior to your becoming a GM I recall you yourself were a very vocal person ingame and your disdain towards 6v6/6mans in general was all too clear. Judge not lest ye be judged

When have you said RoR is competitive? - Guys please join me in an obligatory facepalm, this really deserves no response due to the hilarity of it. Zerging is not pvp? Well its players fighting players, that is the definition of player vs player, that is ORvR. Whether you want to admit it or not, zerging/wb play is always the main aspect of any ORvR game, whether it can be changed will be seen, but I highly doubt it.

* ....so when did I say RoR is competitive again? I commend you on your attempt to ignore the question by rousing the masses against me! Much hilarity!
* I don't mean it in the literal sense (I thought that much would be obvious to someone who has PvP'd across different platforms/scales as yourself); I mean it in the sense that any game purporting to be a PvP game should encourage tactics, individual and group merit, synergy between players, decisiveness and skill. Do you disagree with that? And does zerg incorporate all of the aforementioned, or does it instead rely on overwhelming odds?

Of course I criticise you, like I said I'm calling you out on your bullshit here, you do it on forums and you do it in game, constantly berate those that do it and treat them unfairly, always targeting the select guilds that do it, so yes I'm criticising you and see nothing wrong with it. Aza's stance is clear yes, does not mean everyone has to agree with it, or that people should, he will try to design a way to battle this and that's good, doesn't mean we can't have different views on the matter. So if destro have 5 organised WB's in order to lock a zone its zerging.. well sorry guys that order couldn't manage to get guilds together to combat an organised destro alliance... we can just say they zerged.

* Pot meet kettle (refer to previous points).
* This server will probably never have 5 organised WBs vs 5 organised WBs - at least for a long time. One or two of the biggest RVR guilds have already left from Order, which is saying something.
* You are downplaying - to a HUGE extent - how much zerg has had an effect on RoR. Ask around.
* I reiterate: zerg does not pertain to equal numbers. Zerg is when one side DELIBERATELY go out of their way to beat the opposition via large numbers. X-realming is a leading factor in this, as is people's reluctance to diverge from the blob - and both of these will hopefully be addressed.

I have taken apart of small scale pvp, so ill give you the benefit of the doubt on ignorance. My opinions are perfectly valid on the matter, there are but a couple of guilds that don't do this. Perhaps I should look over the 6v6 caledor woods videos you have? Perhaps rip a section from your stream? Or even grab some of my own footage to prove that this happens every....single....time.... It's always cheese tactic, and consider you used it to try and skyrocket your guild up here on the forums.. damn that's another facepalm right there.

* Unless you can back up your claims with empirical proofs (I assume we're talking about 6v6 here?), then I must maintain my uncertainty.
* By all means look over my videos and enlighten Fusion, Critical Acclaim, enigma, Kappa Pride, etc. on what cheese tactics are being used and how the PvP itself is completely reliant on using these cheese tactics to win, as opposed to - y'know - coordination and team synergy! Dying to find out.
* Skyrocket my guild? The baseless accusations are real. Would appreciate some elaboration on this, or are you going to ignore that too. Posting videos of 6v6 against the server's best guild is something we were proud of, and I shared them hoping to get more people interested in the scene.

[Dabbart]

I seem to suffer the same affliction y'all do as well. I kinda enjoy reading this crap... Unfortunately, 99% of this is semantics, opinion, and choosing to take a statement as a white-wash.

I think it boils down to these 2 quotes:

Adei:
I want you to know, and others of similar nature, that guess what, we get it! Yes you don't like zerging, we get that you think the game should play in other way, but for the love of god do not bring up the same damn stuff in every thread that is made, and don't translate it into game bashing those who do it, trolling is one thing....

Peterthepan3:
Ah man I said I wouldn't respond but I couldn't resist the bait - especially from you, good sir!


It wasn't bait. You said your piece, he said his. Not everything is personal. Sometimes you just disagree.

But yea, /me starts the popcorn

Edit: On Topic... One thing I did like about AoC was the instance based area's at times. More like invading than ORvR at times I guess, but the area's had pretty high caps. And considering the fact that so much of the end-game content is instance based(Dungeons, City Invasions, Forts(in that they limited the amount of entry in at the end of their usage), SCs, etc) random stoner thought of the day; make the BO flag a Port to an SC similar to the Gates during city siege, and make 48v48/24v24 SCs that fight for the duration of the timer, at the end whichever realm has the highest collective owns the BO...

[Tesq]

Tesq, We pretty much never used more than 4. maybe on a couple of occasions. Main setup 4 BW, 1 RP, 1 ENGI, 2 SL. then 4 kobs, 1 IB, 3 SM. With a mix of healers. Some of videos we have way too many WP.

My bad then, i tough you mean that you gone full bomb, to be fair i liked when you popped in rvr from the first time, it was fun have finally some organized wb roaming the lake and i was sad when you stop play that way. For exemple i didn't either like how porn factory organized the wb, it was full of choppa + sorc only and they pushed head down with no tactic/diversity and ye was a bit boring always had 2 wb; i can talk like this cos we were allied with them in t3.
Same goes when i see only bw on order side there is more than that.
Well i must had see ya more on those occasion cos i remember even in t3 you had a lot of bw that's why i said that.
Still i was happy cos it was a start for the organized wb play.

I know it's hard get some classes, most of time i enter in any wb be it guild, ally or pug i see like 1 max 2 BO, while i would like to see staple 2-3 min everytime, so i know that sometimes you end with just sorc /bw ch/kobs dok/wp cos ppl play those the more.

@i would like to point to something that peter said, in live even on guild level there was a certain hate to zerg other, in that sense most of times guilds avoided to perma run in 2wb if it wasn't necessary, let's say if they don't we didn't too.
It gone by rvr night by rvr night but it was due to guilds leader that this was achived again ppl need to be forced to join a guild or be cut to something. Guild/alliance should be a main factor in the game: keep claiming and such were a strong incentive in that sense, we need something like this and it could potentially help a lot with xrealmers and zerg( and this have nothing to do with 6 man or wb play so this is something good for both)
If i know i can count on other 23 ppl i do not need to x realms on the winning side because i know i can still play my cards and get something from it.
Let's say organization should matter more than the single individuals or the blob of selfish mind became the major force of the game.

[adei]

Ah man I said I wouldn't respond but I couldn't resist the bait - especially from you, good sir

I stopped right here. Bait? This was not smart. You have the audacity to call that bait considering you are pretty much standing on the single toe of your last leg since you have been previously perma banned and you only need 1 more strike to be gone once again. You could have said whatever you wanted, but accusing me of baiting you is a joke, neither is your constant attitude swings towards me, either continue to kiss my ass in game like you have been doing, or hate me in both in game and forums, the choice is yours, I could care less for such two faced players of the community.

By all means get cocky with me, you can sit there for hours trying to articulate fancy ways to create your post, but the minute you start accusing me of baiting you, and then start using the terms you have in your own post, you seriously are playing with fire.

[Epo]

Needs more guys wearing a swade jacket to McDonalds, or is just me?

OT: Echosta already hit the nail on the head in this thread, it's just a **** situation. There is the argument of getting more organized groups out there but it just wont happen, albeit from different playstyles to the time someone has to dedicate to the game. One of the biggest problems in my opinion is just the fact people are scared shitless of getting killed. The difference in mentality of T1 to T4 is crazy. T1 is probably some of the more fun pvp sadly because you just **** fight, regardless of numbers. Not saying that's the way to go though.