Destro vs Order

[Razid1987]

My point is that you look at a very narrow point of the game, and then determined that that is what it's suppose to about, despite that almost all other iterations of the game, and Warhammer in general, always has been about: Sieges and large scale conflict.

And you choose to ignore this fact, because it's not not convenient for your position. But I'm wasting my breath.

Have a good day.

[davispeed]

I see this posted everywhere,

"Destro's main advantage is morale gain, while order has better static gameplay"


I'm interested mostly in the latter part about order having better static stuff, which I assume is mostly connected to the kotbs? Anyone care to go into depth here about what order is overperforming on and what destro lacks to compensate for that? Obviously barring anything having to do with morales.

First of all... I NEVER "see this posted ANYWHERE" or see any important disandvantage to change it so this is plain and simple a post for yet ANOTHER Destro nerf morale ina few weeks\days.

[Azarael]

You should listen to less of the poison peddled in game by people who have no bloody clue what will actually end up happening with morale, yet seem to think that they do.

Yes, I'm fully aware that this is going on, and those who are doing it clearly have no shame. I have more than enough to contend with without lies and assumption being spread in order to try to whip people into a partisan frenzy, and there are some names I won't soon be forgetting.

[Fey]

Crit aside, is there another aoe initiative debuff on destro? Mistress of the Marsh debuffs initiative while Sticky Feetz debuffs Elemental resistance which is an undesirable effect. I see synergy with Magus rift which could prove useful. In any case not balanced, but I don't know how potent it is really.

[TenTonHammer]

Crit aside, is there another aoe initiative debuff on destro?

Wave of Mutilation on Mara's AoE tree

[Toldavf]

Crit aside, is there another aoe initiative debuff on destro?

Wave of Mutilation on Mara's AoE tree

A weak dot but a strong debuff its more op then most give it credit for in a bombing environment.

[Haojin]

I see this posted everywhere,

"Destro's main advantage is morale gain, while order has better static gameplay"

I'm interested mostly in the latter part about order having better static stuff, which I assume is mostly connected to the kotbs? Anyone care to go into depth here about what order is overperforming on and what destro lacks to compensate for that? Obviously barring anything having to do with morales.

Spoiler:

Order

Pump

BW - Embrace the Flames - self 200 on crit, 3s retrigger = ~66/s
AM - Bolstering Boon - any 250/2s = 125/s

Drain

SM - Intimidating Blow - 100/5s = -20/s
WH - Vitriolic Judgement - 225 @ 25% direct damage to back of target

Destruction

Pump

CH - Destined for Victory - self 200 on block, 3s retrigger = 66/s
BO - You'z see me blok dat? - self 200 on block, 3s retrigger = 66/s
ZE - By Tzeentch's Will! - self 200 on critical heal, 3s retrigger = 66/s
SO - Glorious Carnage - self 200 on crit, 3s retrigger = 66s/s
SH - Get Movin'! - group 150/10s on direct damage = 15/s (150/5s with second tactic = 30/s)
SQ - Strength in Numbas - self 100/3s on 25% groupmate direct damage = 33/s?

Drain

BO - Lookin' For Opp'tunity - 216/1.15s = -187/s
SH - Hurts, Don't It? - 150/2s = -75/s
MA - Crushing Blows - 225 / 25% direct damage while in Monstrosity

You can "understand" and "see" from Azarael's post how destro designed around fast morale gain - drain. Just check the numbers of morale pump from destro and order.

Let me show an example to you:

When the things come warband vs warband [ Which is main aspect of the game in my book at least 12 vs 12 ],

What is the main pressure of order warband ?

-M2 from BW [ 9,5 second with morale tactic ]

-Shatter Limbs from Slayer [ 20 second cooldown ] + Inevitable Doom [ Spamable with Whispering Winds ] + Rampage [ Every 5 seconds with Whispering Winds with Furious Mode ]

-No Escape [M3] from Knight with 1 AM morale pump [ 13,5 second ] + Crit buff [Defensive Support]

-Whispering Winds from SM [ 20 second cooldown, 5 sec decrease cooldowns] + [Defensive Support]

What is the counter from destruction:

You need:

-Marauders [Morale Drain] to counter M2 from BW. [ And trust me, you can't use many marauders in warband cause of dps output ] + M2 [ 24 seconds unbuffed, with Get Movin' + Ere we Goes Again from Shaman, using 2 tactics, 18 seconds ] [ Offensive Support ]

-Chop Fasta from Choppa [Countering Shatter Limbs only for 2 mins - if you fight agaist more than 2 slayers you're pretty ****.] [ Offensive Support ]

-DoK M2 [1 minute cooldown, 24 seconds to reach] [ Countering Shatter Limbs ] + AoE cleanse [ Already nerfed ]

-Bad Gas from SH [ 20 second cooldown, Countering dps pressure, actually not worth it agaist Whispering Winds, same cooldown ] [And trust me again, you can use 4 slayers in warband but you can't use 4 SH in warband cause of dps output ] and actually the only way to make your squig dps ok is M2 [ Unshakeable Focus, requires Morale boost tactic to use it effectively, 16 seconds with morale tactic ]

-Crimson Death from BG [ Crit Buff, Countering dps output, needs 2 hander= Squishy buff ] [ Offensive Support ]

-Cripling Strikes from Chosen [ Damage reducer, Countering crit buff, You need to stack with Crit, you dont have to use 2 hander for it but you have to use Oppressing Blows [Crit Buff, requires 2hander] + the abilities spammable abilities requires 2hander ] [ Offensive Support ]

-Blast Wave of Chosen [ AoE wounds debuff, 20 feet, 15 second cooldown]

-M2 of Sorc, Focused Mind [ Countering crit buff, requires morale tactic, 24 seconds unbuffed, 9,5 seconds with morale tactic ]

-M2 of Zealot, Focused Mind [ Countering crit buff's dps output, 11 second with morale tactic ]

Abstract for everyone:

Order classes are more stabilized with their mainstream classes, BW [ Morale + Dps ] - Knight [ Defensive + Support ] - SM [ Defensive + Support ] - Slayer [Utility + Dps ].

Order warbands can play like this:
4X [ 1 Knight + 1 SM + 1 BW + 1 Slayer + 2 WP ] [ of course it's just an example and need more utility like dps runepriest, engineer and morale pumper AM ]

If the things come for destro, you have to use a melee SH [ Utility + lack of dps] - Maraduer [ Utility + Lack of dps ] - Choppa [ lol Utility because of cooldown + Dps ] and Offensive tanks [2 hander BG + Chosen] so the only way to close the gap is: Destro morale tactics.

Crit aside, is there another aoe initiative debuff on destro? Mistress of the Marsh debuffs initiative while Sticky Feetz debuffs Elemental resistance which is an undesirable effect. I see synergy with Magus rift which could prove useful. In any case not balanced, but I don't know how potent it is really.

Black Horror from Sorc - 80 init debuff
http://www.waronlinebuilder.org/#career ... :;;0:0:0:0:

Black Orc's Da Biggest Beilow with aoe abilities. [ random stat steal but it works]

Marauder Wave of Mutilation
http://www.waronlinebuilder.org/#career ... :;;0:0:0:0:

Witch Elves "Kiss of Agony" proc with OyK
http://www.waronlinebuilder.org/#career ... ;;;0:0:0:0:

premade warbands lmao

Let me clear something up for you, this game is balanced around the 6 man level. Not the WB level where you can do pretty much anything and you just dump damage morales when the WB leader says so and aside from that you just do whatever you want.

Delete the game.

[Jaycub]

^This server fails to foster a competitive 6v6 environment even in it's highest population times, how is it going to ever feasibly create an environment where premade WB vs WB is a regular thing?

Why balance around something that is not only harder to balance, but is just virtually untapped.

Choosing were to balance is going to be major, it's obvious that balancing at the single party level 6v6, scenarios whatever you want to call it is going to be different than the WB level.

Classes can be **** in 6v6, but perfectly feasible for warband level play if they fill a niche. I don't really see why striving to make every class viable for small scale would be a bad thing, even if Gachi's posts comes off as abrasive or sarcastic it does hold a point where warband level play is largely unbalanced or a mystery/unstudied whatever you want to say.

On this server aside from your guild and maybe PF? I don't think there are any serious WB level guilds out there, from my expierence anyways you guys don't really have any competition aside from pugs and some rag tag alliance groups/warbands every now and then.

[roadkillrobin]

I'd also like to add one point that completly debunk the fact that having Immaculate Defence on CD for tanks is better for Destro then having static crit increase better CC's and AP regen on Order. Order meta groups have acess to the fastest Morale pump in the game on Archmages. If Immaculate Defence were to be so riducklus overpowered over having the static buffs order have. How come not a single order meta goup setup include a Morale pumping Archmage. And here's why. The static buffs and debuffs CC's and the utillity and stabillity of WP and RP triumphs having acess to Immaculate Defence on the tanks. If it didn't every meta group would include a Archmage pumping the morale of the tanks. But this isn't really the case is it??
AM + Tank = M4 26seconds

@Jaycub ORVR guilds on RoR
Phalanx, Nazgul, Porn Factory, Beavers, Invasion, Gentleman at Arms, Radiant Knigts, FUHRER, Who's Savy Now i probobly forgot a whole bunch.

[Jaycub]

The Morale pump on AM is tied to a single target heal, on top of AM being a **** healer. Hardly comparable to a tactic you just slot and literally do not have to change your playstyle at all since it's based off blocking.

Also tank morales are way OP compared to other archetypes, AM can't afford to sit there and pump single target heals into a tank.

Give AM a similar mechanism of morale pump compared to shaman and you might see it played in 6 mans.