Countering zerging in T2/3

[peterthepan3]

The only thing is there are no really equally skilled players since not measures to identify a level of skill in this game.

There are measures, for instance a person who nets a lot of kills as a BW in a small group in big RvR is probably more skilled than the sorc standing afk in a keep throwing in some AOE now and then People just want to believe that the PvP is monotonous everywhere and never want to venture out of their comfort zones.

[grumcajs]

In WAR it was able for fotm rr100 premade to wreak havoc in pug leech wb (player with lowish rr or even sub lvl 40 trying to semi afk empty zones).

Not only rr100 fotm premade. Pretty much every organised grp could score some kills (I mean score some kills, not literary destroy enemy warband on their own) against warband using some flanking from postern doors / strike from behind.

Usually what you can see on videos are premades that hunt the aao and get lots of kills. Though usually its just cuz
- enemy zerg dont give a **** and let straglers to die (=premade doesnt face the whole zerg)
- players are possesed by bloodlust and blindly charge the premade head on in solo mode (=premade doesnt face the whole zerg)
- premade using the safe house - postern, flank, kill, fall back to postern (=again, the premade isnt facing the whole zerg)

All happens when u completely avoid the whole brunt of the mighty zerg and require certain mistakes by enemy players to allow you to get kills. If you would flank the zerg and tanks would use some CC on you while the zerg would react and come back, there is pretty much nothing at all but to fall back asap.

There is no way how you could change the outcome of the orvr battle (zone fight) when u have are facing the zerg and u r heavily outnumbered (if there is equal gear,skill,holy trinity grp). You can get nice renown for fighting the zerg (there are always straglers, players outside of wb, morales to allow you to lose with honor). And you can see that even here from t1 to t4. There are always some purple numbers waiting for you even when u know you already lost the zone and there is nothing to do about it.

[roadkillrobin]

https://youtu.be/XI8SnRvaUH0
Beginning of video Kings Own utilizing LoS denial and baiting to tin out numbers and build morale before engaging what looks like around twice their numbers.

https://youtu.be/71QaAEZlvoo
Beginning of video Red Guard killing what looks like 3 warbands with 3 groups then gets wiped due to moral drain 3.30min in video utilizing walls to protect their flank and then counterflank and then back again were walls protect em for morale dump. 5.21 in standard keep funnel denying los and using their own body block against em and then forming a reverse funnel to counter what comes out from the keep. 8.20min in flanking what looks to be 2 warbands and getting massive combat advantage and wipes what looks like around 3 warbands in total all by using the the tower and the hill to not get swarmed. 11.45 using walls as cover again and in the end wiping what looks like around 3 warbands before dying.

https://youtu.be/0Lfe1TZuxtM
Beginning if video Kings Own showing how demolishing a flank attack can be. End of video standard funnel denial of LoS and using body blocking against em were there numbers makes no difference then pushing out once their tanks and dmg mitigration have been killed.

https://youtu.be/gnEwmfyAry4
Orz flanking 3 wbs with 3 groups and killing em by utilizing keep terrain and postern doors.

[grumcajs]

@roadkillrobin
- these are the videos I was talking about in my post

No 3 times the number at play at all. You can see clearly how 1 side of zerg is busy while others just dont give a **** or how they flee the moment attack came. Also hardly 3 times the numbers even when compared to all players on the place (like no aao displayed, or even displayed 175 aao). Also see the other players (not in grp/wb) pew pew from behind the premade and from walls.

Nice fights though.

[Danielle]

double post delete pls

[Danielle]

Sorry but your completly wrong on this. There are multiple ways of utilizing terrain and los to deal with greater numbers. There are also elements of flanking and suprice attacks that gives massive advantages. Theres also ways to utilize objectives to spread out numbers by cordinating with your realm.

Stop ignoring "similar skill". You are trying to argue that 6 clones of yourself can beat 12 or 18 clones of yourself, or that 24 clones of yourself can beat 48 or 96 clones of yourself. This is complete and utter rubbish. You're not fighting creature AI, you are fighting other players.

I would actually say that a superior number of clones SHOULD always win against their equally skilled counterparts. I don't see how you could argue for a game where a superior number of equally skilled players SHOULD lose to a lower number of equally skilled players, that game would be mechanically broken. Of course there should be diminishing returns on bringing superior numbers. There should also be mechanics that strategically within a campaign and even within fights allow a smaller group to utilize the enemy's superior numbers against them.

However to make a golden rule or a standard, that an inferior number of equally skilled players (clones) SHOULD be able to beat a superior number of equally skilled players makes no sense whatsoever to me. By definition if lower numbers of players beat higher numbers of players the latter group was not equally skilled (given a wide definition of the term, ie.: including using a correct setup). Therefore it makes no sense for me to refer to this 'standard', or argument.

To elaborate: If clones are fighting each other not only are they aware of the superior numbers countering mechanics, they are also aware of how those mechanics are used by their opponents. Therefore such clones should be able to avoid triggering the potential advantages these mechanics give to their opponents. Given this a superior number of equally skilled clones SHOULD always be able to beat an inferior number of equally skilled clones, pretty much no matter what. Therefore I find that using this argument is in a way meaningless.

What should really be talked about is:
-How many more opponents should a skillwise superior group be able to kill.
-How much skill should be required to be skillwise superior and be able to beat higher numbers.
-How high a skill cap is there in the game and how high it should/could be.

[Ravai]

As aza already said, you cant compete in vastly outnumbered situations as a small group, this is down to a few reasons, assuming relatively equal skill level.

- No long duration cc (not saying I want this in the game though), basicly just get overwhelmed and you cant effectivly cc the volume for long enough to deal with dpsing effectively.

- no quick escape/odjira (again, not saying this should be in the game yet, undecided). on live you had these 2 passives that could greatly increase your kite effectivness and reduce the risk involved in approaching highly uneven situations. As it is right now, you have flee+focused mind and thats pretty much your only escape if a zerg gets the jump on you or you eat a masked snare thats not clensed.

To answer the op, no idea, zerging will always exist, playing the underdog realm is more fun but it also means you can't venture much further past your keep/wc/postern doors when you have crazy aao unless your hugging your realms zerg also.

[roadkillrobin]

And the recent zerg complaints been over 80 AAO so.
This is the reason why I invited Az to make a warband and showing him in game instead coz nomather what video i will post someone will point out flaws in it nomather how impressive it would have been.

[peterthepan3]

I saw guild/premade warbands/3groups fighting against - what appeared to be - unorganised/badly setup destro warbands.

[grumcajs]

And the recent zerg complaints been over 80 AAO so.
This is the reason why I invited Az to make a warband and showing him in game instead coz nomather what video i will post someone will point out flaws in it nomather how impressive it would have been.

why to make a warband? what you can prove by it?

Lets say you would personally pick 5 other players for your grp, while enemy personally pick lets say 17 players for his grp.

What do you think would be the outcome of this battle?

Its clear to everyone smaller force of players in premade can wreak havoc against larger force of pugs. We can see it on vids you have posted. There is no denial here.
Smaller force of players in premade is destrined to be anihilated against larger force of premades.
Hell even premade vs premade in scs usually end up by one side obliterate the other. Why to even conside 1v2 or even 1v3 in terms of premade speaking.