Archetype predetermination

[th3gatekeeper]

Becuase that is definatly what the strongest MDPS in the game needs

Its just one example, and yeah in RVR most melee get the SHAFT because RDPS completely dominate. Your thinking SCs, which Maras are very strong then, but you would also have (again) pros/cons here. Maras are only very good when guarded, which in most PUG play means no guard, and in premades a more viable strat would be NOW to go for the tank with your magic damage as they are weaker to it. It merely shifts strats forcing you to actually try and kill tanks instead of MDPS.

Everyone likes to act that MDPS are always part of some melee train. Ive played 80%+ of my time as a tank, and about 10% as a Mara and 10% as a BW, I can say that I have not been pat of many melee trains. So unless one is actually set up, and even then, its only strong in SCs, get into RVR and its NO QUESTION as to what classes are preferred - RDPS. Maras just got a nerf to wounds debuff, which was kinda lame but needed, if they FURTHER need an adjustment because of this, then that would be fine too.

RDPS are already very susceptible to phys dmg, if melee can get on top of these 2 classes their already dead, all this would do is just make TTK lower

Again, mostly true in SCs and RDPS only really die to bad positioning. Also, there are MANY times that MDPS dont take a dump on RPDS and that is if there is no focus, or no coordination and if that RDPS gets a little healing, GG. I do think that with ranged advantage, which is HUGE in this game, there should be serious consequence if you are caught. I played a BW, they have the tools needed to not get caught. With good positioning, and some spot heals, they are VERY powerful. Im totally fine with TTK being faster on RDPS if they are caught with their pants down. Ranged classes have a HUGE advantage in RVR.

All people would just go SnB tanks with DPS spec tanks because their not retarded to want to die even faster to RDPS, making 2h tanks less viable and less useful

Fine with me. Have everytank go SNB, maybe that would solve some issues with no 2H tank guarding because htey want to "DPS" and you made a comment above about how you would spam HTL, GREAT! EVEN BETTER! Get tanks actually doing something for their party.

Right now 2H tanks ARENT very viable, unless in certain premades for SCs, so I actually see this is a net positive to the game.

Its a shitty trade off, espically when you consider other implications a lowered resist cap has, as it makes resists debuffs like KOTBS/CHOSEN auras, heavens blade etc even more powerful and the last thing KOTBS, and chosen need are to become even more mandatory/powerful

You act as if Az hasnt already said he hates Chosen/Knight auras and how lame they are and how they will likely get nerfed. I dont think this makes Chosen/Knights more mandatory at all. If light armor and med armor classes were given more base resists on gear it would actually lessen the benefit chosen auras have. The only classes that would suffer more from this would be other tanks, who have low resists already but even after the debuffs/buffs chances are they would STILL be around their res cap. Right now Chosen/Knights get to the softcaps already... so it really wouldnt change much.. Youd still be at the 25% mark or around that with the debuff from Knights/Chosen and yeah, I think this is the ENTIRE proposal - to make tanks more susceptible to some types of damage, making it more appealing for some classes to try and focus them instead of just ignoring them and then forcing the tank to try and do damage mitigation for the party. PART of his damage mitigation is being a damage shield liertally in being a target that people should attack. More RDPS hitting a tank = less RDPS hitting your allies, etc. I see no problem with this

So this suggestion does nothing to fix this games balance issuess but rather creates an even bigger mess, all in the name of some forced "flavor"

People here are not interested in "balance" they just want to re-live LIVE days man. Anytime someone makes suggestions to make this game for fair/fun/balanced people flip out because "it wasnt that way on LIVE".

If you want 100% balance - go play Chess. Without perfect mirrors on each side, game wont ever be balanced. While we can "strive" for it, I think this WOULD create a sort of balance that I think youd be surprised with frankly.

In RVR it would make most MDPS a little better/more viable. It puts some disadvantage onto RDPS in making them more selective about who they target. No more BWs or Sorcs just trying to 1 rotation some AM/Shaman in the back, or nuke eachother. Each class would have its "roll" in the group. Each class has its advantage against certain classes.

Need to bring down a melee train? Take some Magic RDPS and focus down a tank who is more susceptible to that damage. Need to bring down a healer? You need a Ranged Phys damage class to really nuke them down. A class like a WL (for instance) would have a HUGE advantage against Sorcs now, as they would take much less damage.

I think it starts creating "counters" to certain classes. Where as right now, someone rolls up in a troll group of 4 BWs and 2 AMS on a keep wall and if your a PUG warband, GG they will nuke you everytime. But if that PUG warband is full of light armor wearers, now that comp loses its luster.

It also increases the skill gap - something people should love. But it does allow for very skillful play if you know what you are doing. Allows small groups TO have advantages if diversified in their damage type and what they can do.

I do think this would add a ton of much needed variety to the game and completely switch things up for many people, this game has gotten stale. Sure it would require some adjustments, but it wouldnt be any different than it is now...

[kweedko]

The gameplay situation between the slayer and the sorc would be exactly like described. About the tank permanently slowing you (i guess that's meant): As a healer you shouldn't have any problems.
The point is: This game was neither balanced for 1vs1 nor will it ever be. You will always have an archetype who has an advantage against you; therefore groups need to be mixed with different archetypes to cover weaknesses.
This is a group vs group or warband vs warband game and you rely on others to survive.
http://warhammeronline.wikia.com/wiki/P ... sus_Player
Edit:

Spoiler:

Inb4 Torque pastel color joke.

" Ranged classes, however, can negate the toughness of a tanking class by removing close quarters - thus limiting the amount of damage they take, while dealing enough damage to kill the Tank." - from your wiki, and we all know that's a total bullshit cause on ROR tank's don't die until they zerged by more tanks, tanks have no counter on ROR except tanks.

And i laugh so hard every time someone say mara best dps

[TenTonHammer]

Its just one example, and yeah in RVR most melee get the SHAFT because RDPS completely dominate. Your thinking SCs, which Maras are very strong then, but you would also have (again) pros/cons here. Maras are only very good when guarded, which in most PUG play means no guard, and in premades a more viable strat would be NOW to go for the tank with your magic damage as they are weaker to it. It merely shifts strats forcing you to actually try and kill tanks instead of MDPS.


Everyone likes to act that MDPS are always part of some melee train. Ive played 80%+ of my time as a tank, and about 10% as a Mara and 10% as a BW, I can say that I have not been pat of many melee trains. So unless one is actually set up, and even then, its only strong in SCs, get into RVR and its NO QUESTION as to what classes are preferred - RDPS. Maras just got a nerf to wounds debuff, which was kinda lame but needed, if they FURTHER need an adjustment because of this, then that would be fine too.

And your thinking of of your massive pug zerg v zerg back and forth fests where your RDPS dominates via bombing but look at the new rvr system the devs are putting in place, it punishes zergs, those AoE cannons makes player break up into smaller groups espically to hold more objectives for supplies and stuff

So the type of engaements you are going to see are more along the lines of 12v12 scs and stuff even in pugs etc etc

Again, mostly true in SCs and RDPS only really die to bad positioning. Also, there are MANY times that MDPS dont take a dump on RPDS and that is if there is no focus, or no coordination and if that RDPS gets a little healing, GG. I do think that with ranged advantage, which is HUGE in this game, there should be serious consequence if you are caught. I played a BW, they have the tools needed to not get caught. With good positioning, and some spot heals, they are VERY powerful. Im totally fine with TTK being faster on RDPS if they are caught with their pants down. Ranged classes have a HUGE advantage in RVR.

that just bads being bads in pugs who cant prioritize targets or have awareness on whom needs heals in their party, its been long established that we should neither care nor cater to unorganized players

Fine with me. Have everytank go SNB, maybe that would solve some issues with no 2H tank guarding because htey want to "DPS" and you made a comment above about how you would spam HTL, GREAT! EVEN BETTER! Get tanks actually doing something for their party.

Right now 2H tanks ARENT very viable, unless in certain premades for SCs, so I actually see this is a net positive to the game.

Yes let's ensure that 2H tanks fade into obscurity because of their inferiority to SnB tanks instead...i dont know.... bringing the playstyle in line with SnB


Having less viable playstyles is always a good thing right guys?

People here are not interested in "balance" they just want to re-live LIVE days man. Anytime someone makes suggestions to make this game for fair/fun/balanced people flip out because "it wasnt that way on LIVE".

If you want 100% balance - go play Chess. Without perfect mirrors on each side, game wont ever be balanced. While we can "strive" for it, I think this WOULD create a sort of balance that I think youd be surprised with frankly.

In RVR it would make most MDPS a little better/more viable. It puts some disadvantage onto RDPS in making them more selective about who they target. No more BWs or Sorcs just trying to 1 rotation some AM/Shaman in the back, or nuke eachother. Each class would have its "roll" in the group. Each class has its advantage against certain classes.

Need to bring down a melee train? Take some Magic RDPS and focus down a tank who is more susceptible to that damage. Need to bring down a healer? You need a Ranged Phys damage class to really nuke them down. A class like a WL (for instance) would have a HUGE advantage against Sorcs now, as they would take much less damage.

I think it starts creating "counters" to certain classes. Where as right now, someone rolls up in a troll group of 4 BWs and 2 AMS on a keep wall and if your a PUG warband, GG they will nuke you everytime. But if that PUG warband is full of light armor wearers, now that comp loses its luster.

It also increases the skill gap - something people should love. But it does allow for very skillful play if you know what you are doing. Allows small groups TO have advantages if diversified in their damage type and what they can do.

I do think this would add a ton of much needed variety to the game and completely switch things up for many people, this game has gotten stale. Sure it would require some adjustments, but it wouldnt be any different than it is now...

Any one who wanted a recreation of live has long since left this server as it is NOT a "faithful" recreation of the live server, trying to heavily handily shoe horn in counters is unnecessary and following by your logic that melee trains should be countered by melee trains should we heavily nerf WL's since they destroy rdps?

Should we remove big brawlin from BO's and put it on an RDPS since that ability screws over melee trains but its on a tank and only RDPS should be able to counter mele trains etc?

Where as right now, someone rolls up in a troll group of 4 BWs and 2 AMS on a keep wall and if your a PUG warband, GG they will nuke you everytime. But if that PUG warband is full of light armor wearers, now that comp loses its luster.

Stop trying to make balance suggestions based on low tier pug zerg play

[Luth]

Spoiler:

The gameplay situation between the slayer and the sorc would be exactly like described. About the tank permanently slowing you (i guess that's meant): As a healer you shouldn't have any problems.
The point is: This game was neither balanced for 1vs1 nor will it ever be. You will always have an archetype who has an advantage against you; therefore groups need to be mixed with different archetypes to cover weaknesses.
This is a group vs group or warband vs warband game and you rely on others to survive.
http://warhammeronline.wikia.com/wiki/P ... sus_Player

" Ranged classes, however, can negate the toughness of a tanking class by removing close quarters - thus limiting the amount of damage they take, while dealing enough damage to kill the Tank." - from your wiki, and we all know that's a total bullshit cause on ROR tank's don't die until they zerged by more tanks, tanks have no counter on ROR except tanks.

And i laugh so hard every time someone say mara best dps

1. That isn't "my wiki"
2. I linked it to give the OP an impression why WAR has an archetype system and how it works, basically for the table in the entry that shows very nicely that no archetype should have only advantages vs all other archetypes.

You quoted my post but "argued" about what someone else wrote years ago on an unofficial wiki; indeed it was no proper argumentation at all, because you just claimed something again. If there is need to balance something, it can be discussed in an appropriate manner via the balance discussion sub forum.

[kweedko]

You quoted my post but "argued" about what someone else wrote years ago on an unofficial wiki; indeed it was no proper argumentation at all, because you just claimed something again. If there is need to balance something, it can be discussed in an appropriate manner via the balance discussion sub forum.

Than let me write in that sub forum cause i can't.

And what archetype counter tanks?

[Mystry]

Honestly, classes being so hidebound by their archetype is what made me quit warhammer on live, and its what made me quit RoR (until balancing is done, or at least further along). My favorite class, warrior priest, is essentially forced to be a healer due to wrath and grace being both underpowered and lacking the tools needed to efficiently melee DPS. My second favorite class, witch hunter, is largely useless due to the ranged mob nature of the game. As gear progresses this becomes less of an issue, but as far as I see it, there is no point in playing any melee DPS without the support of a tank friend and a healer friend, and I have neither. So I'm just kind of waiting for enough tiers of gear to be released that WH becomes semi-viable to start playing again.

I also liked to play SW in assault spec, but once again its a joke compared to skirmish/scout stuff.

[StormX2]

sounds like a good time to make some new friends

[Mystry]

Telling someone to 'just get friends' does not fix the balance problems the game has.

[bloodi]

Telling someone to 'just get friends' does not fix the balance problems the game has.

And the fact tha you dont have friends doesnt mean the a game built around groups and what they can do has balance problems.

[Mystry]

Telling someone to 'just get friends' does not fix the balance problems the game has.

And you not having friends doesnt mean the a game built around groups and what they can do has balance problems.

Never said anything about groups, I complained about how WP has no viable DPS option, and WH is next to useless due to how ranged dominates the game (at least until they get to a certain gear level which is not available at the moment).

The game clearly has balance problems. Every single multiplayer game ever created has balance problems, and fixing them is an on-going, never-ending cycle. That's just the nature of the beast. If WH were to suddenly be fixed in some fashion that made them equal to other melee DPS, a host of other balance issues would crop up.

The trick is finding a balance (get it) between the classes in which no single class is too overpowered, and no single class is too underpowered. Given that every class has (or is supposed to have) multiple options due to the mastery trees (like WP is supposed to have a melee DPS option through Wrath), this becomes very, very difficult.

The point of all of this is that my favorite classes, and ways to play them, are simply not viable in any context right now. Even if I DID have a dedicated guard and healer, my WH would perform far worse than an equivalently geared Slayer or WL.