Dual Wield and Greatweapon balance

[Tklees]

i would rather prefer to see some nerfs/buffs to certain classes before changing something which is as complex as this and involves 2 archetypes, 8 classes and favors one realm more than the other.

I'm really interesded in seeing which classes you think need a buff/nerf (no trolling, no flame attempt). Maybe on a different thread.

not sure tbh since we cant test the endgame yet. it is hard to say because a lot of things will be different to our live experience once we have 40/80. but i am almost sure about marauder in terms of nerf and melee wp in terms of buffs, he clearly needs a healdebuff to be a viable replacement for the slayer but thats something which has to be discussed and tested in another topic

In response to grulo my list is below:

Buff in order from most needed to least: Melee WP, engi, BO/SM, Magus, AM/Shaman, WL

Nerf in order from most to least: Chalice/Book WP/Dok, Slayer, Kotbs, Mara, and rkd changed to disarm from rkd

[Scrilian]

Slayer

Don't nerf me, brah, I'm your friend.

[Bretin]

In response to grulo my list is below:

Buff in order from most needed to least: Melee WP, engi, BO/SM, Magus, AM/Shaman, WL

Nerf in order from most to least: Chalice/Book WP/Dok, Slayer, Kotbs, Mara and rkd changed to disarm from rkd

can you please enlighten me and explain why the following classes, regarding to your list, require a buff / nerf

Buff:
BO/SM
BO is probably the best tank on destru side when it comes to competitive gameplay and that is not due to its initiative debuff, i don't see how a buff would be justified.
SM is the best 2h tank in the game and provides a lot of group utility. he is more than just viable! imho he outshines IB right now and he will continue doing that in t4

Magus
In T4 its burst is equal to sorc if played properly. again i don't see how this is justified

AM/Shaman
AM (dps) is by far the strongest solo class in the whole game. healwise he is great; it's the only class with moral push and almost unlimited AP thanks to Wildhealing. 2 detaunts on a fairly short cooldown if using the CD reduce tactic and a pit which can make him and his group survive/kite a lot. [/i
Shaman: he is by far the hardest to kill healer in the whole game. it's not like that he has access to a free movement speed buff, 3 hots and a stacking detaunt + aoe snare. nothing on earth would justify buffing this class imho

WL
Missplayed by 99% of the people on live and here. He is simply underrated because of WARs def meta when it was all about outlasting your enemy - that's something the WL is not created for. I can't imagine what kind of buff could be justified due to its insane amount of mobility and ST damage.

Nerf:
rkd
why would you nerf/change this? destru has goblin racials and the best charge ingame on a rdps class (RUN AWAY!). Not even mentioning the off gcd disarm nor the insane high defensive potential destru groups in general have.

[Tklees]

In response to grulo my list is below:

Buff in order from most needed to least: Melee WP, engi, BO/SM, Magus, AM/Shaman, WL

Nerf in order from most to least: Chalice/Book WP/Dok, Slayer, Kotbs, Mara and rkd changed to disarm from rkd

can you please enlighten me and explain why the following classes, regarding to your list, require a buff / nerf

Buff:
BO/SM
BO is probably the best tank on destru side when it comes to competitive gameplay and that is not due to its initiative debuff, i don't see how a buff would be justified.
SM is the best 2h tank in the game and provides a lot of group utility. he is more than just viable! imho he outshines IB right now and he will continue doing that in t4

Magus
In T4 its burst is equal to sorc if played properly. again i don't see how this is justified

AM/Shaman
AM (dps) is by far the strongest solo class in the whole game. healwise he is great; it's the only class with moral push and almost unlimited AP thanks to Wildhealing. 2 detaunts on a fairly short cooldown if using the CD reduce tactic and a pit which can make him and his group survive/kite a lot. [/i
Shaman: he is by far the hardest to kill healer in the whole game. it's not like that he has access to a free movement speed buff, 3 hots and a stacking detaunt + aoe snare. nothing on earth would justify buffing this class imho

WL
Missplayed by 99% of the people on live and here. He is simply underrated because of WARs def meta when it was all about outlasting your enemy - that's something the WL is not created for. I can't imagine what kind of buff could be justified due to its insane amount of mobility and ST damage.

Nerf:
rkd
why would you nerf/change this? destru has goblin racials and the best charge ingame on a rdps class (RUN AWAY!). Not even mentioning the off gcd disarm nor the insane high defensive potential destru groups in general have.

I'm not talking about big changes for any of these suggestions. My reasoning follows:
Blorc/SM: one useful group/CC ability. You are probably the only person I've ever heard say blorc was better than chosen. Ever.
Magus: the statement that a magus can burst like a Sorc of equal gear and level is simply just false. I have played both and Sorc for a large amount of time at max level its just simply not true at all.
AM/Shaman: Both need one or two tweaks. Shaman mainly needs to not be canceled out by kotbs to be viable and AM needs one more kite tool. But I agree they aren't far from good. Just a high skill cap here.
WL: if 99% of the pop is doing it wrong and 1% is doing it right that suggests a change needs to be made to clarify the class.
BW rkd: the long standing goblins justify rkd argument is just ludicrous. It does not justify it for two classes to have it. BW will still have a disarm and SW will still have the one RKD to counter goblins

[peppex91]

Just w8 t4 for class balance tweaks, u can't judge from current meta (but agree on bretin on most of his last post).
The 2h switch from block to parry striketrough was quite gentle imo and surely not significative for realm balance.
Mara is still good, little to envy from WL (and surely not that 10%) and he's gonna shine even more in t4 while Wl will loose some power (bad lion scaling); but if this little change just bring more order bias rumors, (as it seem) betta delay it for now; it's not worth it.

[roadkillrobin]

Just w8 t4 for class balance tweaks, u can't judge from current meta (but agree on bretin on most of his last post).
The 2h switch from block to parry striketrough was quite gentle imo and surely not significative for realm balance.
Mara is still good, little to envy from WL (and surely not that 10%) and he's gonna shine even more in t4 while Wl will loose some power (bad lion scaling); but if this little change just bring more order bias rumors, (as it seem) betta delay it for now; it's not worth it.

WL don't have any issues with this. They have the highest AA speed of any great weapon users.

[Joshwa70]

And the least utility and cc

[peppex91]

My post wasn't about Wl scaling or dps issues, but on how ridicoulous can be aborting a change coz a realm got 1 more potential 2h user and how this can be even more funny if u take in consideration that WL mirror is Mara (not a shy 1 on every meta, i'd say).

[Joshwa70]

Destro admits that wl sucks.. but don't you dare give them anything that might make them hit more, and please ignore the maruader behind the curtain a**blasting everything in sight.

[Bretin]

You're the only person of any intelligence I have ever heard say this. I just don't see how an init debuff is better than CS, auras, aoe wounds debuff, and stagger

Blorc/SM: one useful group/CC ability. You are probably the only person I've ever heard say blorc was better than chosen. Ever.

i already figured in several "balance" threads that my opinion in general doesn't match with the common pugs opinion, but that's fine.

That being said let's compare chosen and BO advantage:
Chosen:
- Resistance Aura (outside large scale PvP not necessary but nice to have)
- Strength Aura (BO has both str buff and debuff)
- Toughness Aura (buff can be provided by BO, debuff by marauder)
- AP Aura (nice to have)
- 25% Healdebuff Aura (useless due to the fact that you usually have one dps who has access to HD)
- KD (can be provided by BO)
- CS (very good, BO is not able to debuff physical damage on AoE but in most of the cases 10s ST is enough. Can also be cleansed by WPs group purge unless Chosen gives up Moral Push and goes 2h. therefor imho equal with BOs dmg reduction abilities)
- AoE Wounds Debuff (Decent but can be cleansed by WP, BO doesn't have that)
- Stagger (free immunity and only helpful in terms of kiting large amount of ppl)
- Decent ST kick (great! and superior to BO st kick in terms of range)
- Moral Push Tactic (Great! BO has that too without giving up anything (Chosen has to give up uptime on CS))
- ST snare (can be purged by WP and has 5s cd, weak compared to BO)

Black Orc:
- WS Buff (w/o CD) for passive target (huge dmg buff to physical dmg, can't be provided by chosen)
- Any possible stat buff for the group / debuff for the enemy (including initiative for large amounts of crit) (awesome in both ways offensive and defensive, can't be provided by chosen) chosens limited version (str/tough) requires to spec into 2(!) trees to maximize it's effectivness, BO needs 1 tree to maximize all stats.
- Resistance buff for the group (therefor he has to give up stat steal, he can't have both but that's okay due to the superior stat buffs/debuffs)
- Armor buff for Group (very good since physical damage is the main threat in WAR, can't be provided by chosen)
- Corporeal resistance debuff (nice to have & good synergy with WE also higher than chosen resistance debuff - exactly the double amount if both have equal points in the appropriated tree)
- Armor Debuff (Second best debuff in the game, next to ic hd, can't be provided by chosen)
- Spamable AoE Snare (therefor can't be purged (isn't affected by WP group purge anyway but even if it would be, it has NO CD!)) - chosen can't provide it!
- Spamable ST Snare (therefor can't be purged (isn't affected by WP group purge anyway but even if it would be, it has NO CD!)) - chosen can't provide it!
- AoE Kick (very good when pressured, can't be provided by chosen)
- ST Kick (chosen has a slightly better one due to its range but still very good, BO has no CD between his first 2 kicks)
- -20% magic dmg for 4 seconds for group (due to the above described facts, equal to CS)
- -20% physical dmg for 10 seconds against 1 enemy (due to the above described facts, equal to CS)
- ST CD increase (strong in both ways off/def, can't be provided by chosen)
- Moral Push (Great! chosen has it too but has to give up uptime on CS, BO will lose nothing)
- viable Damage Moral (3) (due to moral push tactic, a lot of pressure pretty early - chosen can't provide it)
- Additional damage proc on crit for the whole group (insanely good in terms of pressure, chosen can't provide it)
- ST Knockdown (insane high tooltipp damage but in terms of cc equal to chosen, due to the dmg still superior)
- Ailment debuff type in general, not affected by WP's group purge (awesome, chosen can't provide it!)

Alone the fact that BO has a spamable AoE snare which is not affected by WPs group purge is a reason to take him any time over the chosen. Not only that AoE snare is defensive wise by far better than CS, it's also offense. if you now compare both the offensive/defensive group utility potential of both BO and Chosen, you might agree with me that BO has the upper hand (but i doubt ... tschusen to strongu #prayforfatorc).

Magus: the statement that a magus can burst like a Sorc of equal gear and level is simply just false. I have played both and Sorc for a large amount of time at max level its just simply not true at all.

that's the players and not the classes fault, the burst potential is equal and i'm willing to show you how to do it as soon as we have lvl cap. sorc is just easier to pull off and the one trick pony got very popular already

AM/Shaman: Both need one or two tweaks. Shaman mainly needs to not be canceled out by kotbs to be viable and AM needs one more kite tool. But I agree they aren't far from good. Just a high skill cap here.

everything in the game has a counterplay so why is the KotBS not allowed to be the counterplay of the Shaman? AM has enough survivability and enough kite tools i don't see what they lack.

WL: if 99% of the pop is doing it wrong and 1% is doing it right that suggests a change needs to be made to clarify the class.

or a l2p school has to be opened by the 1%.

BW rkd: the long standing goblins justify rkd argument is just ludicrous. It does not justify it for two classes to have it.

you have the kiting tools on 2 classes so how is it not justified to have 1 counter on 2 classes? i don't get that point

let's drop this for now, it will lead to nothing anyway and it is offtopic. once we have balance discussions we can go on in the attendant threads