[Engineer,Magus]Keg,Aegis change v.2

[Noergl]

Hmm If u scale higher than 24 vs 24 much higher i Cant See that Tons of kegs dat stack an gvie more heals than like The Best grp heal can be not OP

Now we are really getting into wishful thinking territorry, dont you think.
How often would you have more than one wb standing at the same place dont moving away cause the keg then wouldnt work anymore?
Are we speaking now about a lord defense with 2+ wbs not leaving the lords room or how may i understand this scaling?

And the argument with wb +10 keg engies vs wb + 10 destro supporter/healer: I still believe order would loose because they would be sitting ducks.

I honestly believe you cant make a discussion based on one and only one special situation where you think it would be op - which i still dont see proofed.

[CegeePegee]

In DW last week (or it may have been late the week before that) 3 organized Destro WBs (Phalanx, Who's Savvy Now, and a full pug wb all communicating and working together) could not take Order's keep after several hours of trying. The faction numbers were pretty much even. We could not penetrate the lord room due to aoe and it was believed at the time that Order's keep may have been bugged allowing them to respawn inside bc it appeared that we could not seem to diminish their numbers but the bug turned out not to be true - it wasn't until later, maybe the next day, that people realized that it may have been kegs that were simply keeping Order alive in the lord room. By that time it was too late to take screenshots, of course. I believe this battle in DW could have been the "proof"
that we need, had anyone at the time thought to check how many kegs were in play and the heal numbers they were putting out. Does anyone have any data from that fight? Would be interesting to see but it's prob too long ago now :/

[GodlessCrom]

I was there, and I don't recall seeing many engi kegs. If I'm rememebering correctly, it was avocetii's warband defending and there were relatively few engis. Unfortunately I don't have screenshots to prove it, sorry. What was happening was destro couldn't properly keep aggro on the lord, and your healers kept dying or getting punted, and our healers were not being pressured, letting them rez nonstop. They didn't get everyone either, because I had to make the trip from the wc more than once

I may be rememebering a different fight, of course, but this one stuck out because some destro whispered me asking if we were rezzing in the keep and not at the wc, and it took you all like 5 or 6 tries before everyone logged for the night and certain destro players logged on their order toons to **** talk

[Grunbag]

In DW last week (or it may have been late the week before that) 3 organized Destro WBs (Phalanx, Who's Savvy Now, and a full pug wb all communicating and working together) could not take Order's keep after several hours of trying. The faction numbers were pretty much even. We could not penetrate the lord room due to aoe and it was believed at the time that Order's keep may have been bugged allowing them to respawn inside bc it appeared that we could not seem to diminish their numbers but the bug turned out not to be true - it wasn't until later, maybe the next day, that people realized that it may have been kegs that were simply keeping Order alive in the lord room. By that time it was too late to take screenshots, of course. I believe this battle in DW could have been the "proof"
that we need, had anyone at the time thought to check how many kegs were in play and the heal numbers they were putting out. Does anyone have any data from that fight? Would be interesting to see but it's prob too long ago now :/

How many kegs could keep alive 3 wb against 3 organised wb ?

[Daknallbomb]

Hmm i was there. There the problem was dat we dont could take keep lord aggro hold IT and kill Edit oh dear noone say that The kegs alone hold a wb alive and thats not needed cause News for u a wb has healer mostly 6 of tham sur Prise.... Back to topic i think in each keep Fight at prime there are 10+ engi and i think The heal from 10+ kegs in a lord room is Fight changing

[Grunbag]

"people realized that it may have been kegs that were simply keeping Order alive in the lord room."

Sorry if I misunderstood , just thought he said order won because of keg heals

[CegeePegee]

In DW last week (or it may have been late the week before that) 3 organized Destro WBs (Phalanx, Who's Savvy Now, and a full pug wb all communicating and working together) could not take Order's keep after several hours of trying. The faction numbers were pretty much even. We could not penetrate the lord room due to aoe and it was believed at the time that Order's keep may have been bugged allowing them to respawn inside bc it appeared that we could not seem to diminish their numbers but the bug turned out not to be true - it wasn't until later, maybe the next day, that people realized that it may have been kegs that were simply keeping Order alive in the lord room. By that time it was too late to take screenshots, of course. I believe this battle in DW could have been the "proof"
that we need, had anyone at the time thought to check how many kegs were in play and the heal numbers they were putting out. Does anyone have any data from that fight? Would be interesting to see but it's prob too long ago now :/

How many kegs could keep alive 3 wb against 3 organised wb ?

Well, looking at the tooltip for just the keg (idk if there are tactics or procs from other classes that make it stronger so I'm just going to work with the base healing it does) 1 keg heals for 224 every 3 sec for 15 sec for a total of 1120hp per cooldown, yes? Now, lets just for fun assume that there is 1 eng in each group across 3 wbs and every one of them has a keg out, since they can stack indefinitely. With 12 kegs in play (4 kegs per wb at 3 wbs) that's 13,440hp over 15 sec, 10sec cd, then the kegs can be brought out again. Maybe I'm a loon, but that doesn't seem like an insignificant amount of healing nor an unlikely number of engineers considering how oh-so-popular they have become to play I'm not trying to claim that 12 kegs can keep up 3 wbs but they sure are helping and there are NO MEANS of defeating them in a lord room unless you happen to be ranged and can los all the engies AND you're not getting melted in 3 sec by loads of aoe damage from the rest of the players in those 3 enemy wbs. In the case of that particular DW fight, our squishy ranged dps couldn't even get near the lord room without nearly instant death. Was this merely a fluke? Oh how I would love to have my combat log from that day...

[StormX2]

Why is it not okay to introduce a limit to stacking of kegs in order to reduce the scale issue in keep defenses?

Because there is no issue, until someone can prove that a 10 keg engi WB can beat the destro WB i mentioned.

Why are we even using a 10 Engi WB as an example for a Large Scale issue?

Strictly discussing Keep Defense here and Large number, so Id like to use a more standard setup.

Lets say 2 warbands vs 2 warbands, pretty standard group makeups, with order using 1 engi per individual party.

At the very least it seems that an engi, up tinkerer until keg, has about barely under 300 health per 3 seconds right? If each one of them goes the same way (maybe some up in rifleman, or some up in grenadier for the napalm). Each of those, 8 total Engi;s, can place Kegs at or near the lord room without any real consequence other than having to be in range of potential fire, the AP cost and the time to deploy it.

Now on average, the people in the lord room, would be a mix of Tanks, M/RDPS Single Target and AoE etc. Strictly looking at what the keg can do alone, 8 x Kegs with 9 random targets (sometimes the same, sometimes full health) can heal what, 72 targets? In the Lords Room, How many people out of 48 would actually be in that lord room, in range of the kegs? I cannot guess what the average really would be, so just going to throw out an arbitrary number of 15 people in the Lord Room, attempting to fight and disrupt Destro.

the 8 x Kegs are now healing between only 15 people, in or out of party, with or without damage, that is a potential for a nice and easy 2400 in health, every 3 seconds, regardless of whether that Engi is even in a party or a warband in the first place.

Now since we have standard party builds, at the very least a healer or 2 in each party. Those kegs can be seen as providing additional heals where your healers might not have been able to. It's like a Free HoT, allowing the actual Healers to sit on top floor, cranking out AoE heals (AM with Wild Healing, full Will Power stack anyone?) without even having to LoS team member for a HoT or direct heal, as the only people realistically taking damage are on the lord room, and in range of those kegs. I see the Stackable Kegs as helping promote crap gameplay, of 1 button spamming on 3rd floor, with the rare los st heal being tossed.

This is why I believe that a change to how keg can interact with players can be a good thing. What is the right change? Well I don't really know... I agree that a cap on the number of Stackable Kegs could definitely make it fair. Is this even possible? Can this even be done? Is it either All Kegs can Stack, or No Kegs can stack? Similar to Pit of Shades?

Changing how many kegs can stack on each other in the same area will not effect game play in 6v6 or any other small man situation (while barely changing things in the Pug SC's), but will greatly help when it comes to larger scale fights, especially those in a small area.

With this all being said, I do not see why Engi's are vehemently opposed to a stack cap.





I am at work, ive been writing this on and off while doing many other things and apologize for anything I may have missed. I am writing this as an everyday player who does play both sides. I will as per recommendations (or maybe, a requirement from this Thread?) Be playing Engineer for a little while to see it from the perspective of the Engineer, as I have already seen it from the perspective of the Front Line KOTBS huddled in the Lord room.

[Grunbag]

Considering you have 1 engineer per group on 2 wb . 8 engineer heal then .
On the other side same numbers (2 wb) and let's have another rdps in each group of destro
So basically a sorc / squig / magus . Does this additional rdps would make more than 1300 dmg every 3 second (one tick of a keg on 9 target) . A sorc would do way more dmg than the heal of a keg . A tinkerer with 300 Bs and low range would have insignfiant dps so not balancing the rdps on destro side . Sorry i am at work too, cannot write a lot and my English is not good enough to explain everything I think exactly hope you undertand my post

[StormX2]

Considering you have 1 engineer per group on 2 wb . 8 engineer heal then .
On the other side same numbers (2 wb) and let's have another rdps in each group of destro
So basically a sorc / squig / magus . Does this additional rdps would make more than 1300 dmg every 3 second (one tick of a keg on 9 target) . A sorc would do way more dmg than the heal of a keg . A tinkerer with 300 Bs and low range would have insignfiant dps so not balancing the rdps on destro side . Sorry i am at work too, cannot write a lot and my English is not good enough to explain everything I think exactly hope you undertand my post

I think you have incorrectly said something though - my situation includes the most basic use of tinkerer, I do not understand why this Engineer is required to have only 300 BS? with just keg picked up, engi can build a strong rifle or grenadier build, the healing numbers I provided are Toolltip listed while wearing Merc gear on a RR 50 engi. That engi could be stacking BS or WS.


Using the comparison you provided, a sorc would be using Pit of Shades from around the corner, similar to how the Napalm would be use to harass the backlines as well as front lines.

Unlike the Kegs, Pit of Shades cannot stack, the reason why is it became OP when involving higher numbers of players.

So once again, I am seeing no reason why there should not be a cap on Keg Stacking.

In fact, it feels like its a great idea to actively test it on the live server with a Stack Limit (Is this technically even possible?)