[Implemented] Group cleansing.

[footpatrol2]

Spoiler:

I don't think this group cleanse as a mechanic should be changed. We can very easily get into a slippery slope situation where we are chasing our tail in balance. This seems like a situation "on fixing things that are not that broken."

Opinion and slippery slope fallacy without argument - Azarael

Spoiler:

Issue 1: Not that big of a issue.
Issue 2: Not that big of a issue.

Dismissing points without argument is not allowed. This is the balance forum, you don't get to shitpost one-liners. Make an argument or do not speak - Azarael

Spoiler:

Issue 3:

- Group cleanse being used as a counter to AoE effects is a huge game design flaw if only one healer is permitted access to it.

I disagree. This adds class flavor. I wouldn't want to see more standardization across the board on healers. I and I think others also, like the uniqueness this game provides on classes. Group cleanse is unique to Dok's and WP. I wouldn't want to see group cleanse handed out to the other healers like candy.

This forum is not about class flavour, it's about balance. Do not appeal to class individuality when making any balance argument - Azarael

Spoiler:

- Group cleanse does not discriminate between ST debuffing and AoE debuffing.

Not that big of a deal. Your already limited by what you can cleanse.

And the cleanse is still superior as other cleanses are also restricted in what they can cleanse, so you failed to make any point whatsoever here - Azarael

The only change I think that should be made is that Dok's have their group cleanse tactic removed and replace it with something creative. Dok's group cleanse tactic wasn't part of the original design and was conducted as more mirror pushing for the community which was a lazy fix by mythic. Also, the mythic morale gain rates for a full group should be implemented because the Dok's group cleanse is tied to morale. Mythic morale gain rates are important because it allows earlier access to m2 Dok group cleanse then is currently available in RoR. There are many other reason's on why to implement the original mythic morale gain rates but I won't get into it here because that is not the topic of discussion. Dok's still have their group cleanse via morale which is stronger then the WP tactic as it should be because it is morale.

Spoiler:

The limitations of what the WP can actually cleanse is enough for balance and to force mixed group comps to include a variety of healers if they desire to due so.

Why is that? Explain, stop stating opinions that contradict the state of the game as if they are the Gospel - Azarael

If Dok's group cleanse tactic was removed they would have to depend on their morale for group cleanse which limits how often they are able to group cleanse due to morale's being tied to a 1 minute cooldown.

Spoiler:

The differences is apples/oranges. WP get to cleanse constantly but are limited to only cleansing one thing per cleanse which also can't cleanse ailments which is heavily used in melee comps. Stack classes that shatter blessings, stack classes that provide ailments and your hard countering douple WP based comps. Dok's get to wipe multiple dots/debuff's but have to spend precious morale and give up other morale options. Dok's have a better single target cleanse because it includes ailments which again most melee group comps are based on but can't group cleanse without blowing morale. Apples/oranges.

This was never about double WP comps, which have the known Ailment weakness. It's about the overeffectiveness of the group cleanse tactic on both sides - Azarael

Spoiler:

There are already natural checks and balances implemented in this game and it is tied to what can cleanse what, and What can shatter what. Group cleanse is heavily tied into the balance of this game. I don't think it should be played around with. Messing around with group cleanse on group compositions higher then 6 man will have a dramatic effect.

Opinion without justification, and appeal to original developers (natural design spiel) - Azarael

This is slightly off-topic but addresses WP/DoK

Spoiler:

A different approach to what was suggested would be to move the AE detaunt tactic to the 11 point in the dps tree of WP and Dok's. This forces the healy WP/Dok to gut thier build and give up a lot for AE detaunt. To me these tactic's always seemed misplaced and were meant for dps WP/Dok's and not healing WP/Dok's. Or possibly just remove the AE detaunt tactic's. If those tactics are removed then its a game changer.

[Tesq]

-The first thing that need to be take into account when you are going to touch g-cleanse it's that they have no trade off because other aoe dots have not any trade off; the cost for aoe dots it still the same as 1 ST dot and so it's the same for cleanse.
I don't wanna defend the g-cleanse cos they need a touch but not so radically as some ppl may think.Moreover the cost to radically change the efficency would require so many work in my opinion (would be abnormal) where there are easier solutions.

-The second thing to take into account are CD decrease: actually a CD decrease make this g-cleanse or cleanse anyway spamable. This is probably the crucial point


-Third each healer offer something to the party

dok/wp -> proc
sh/am ->moral boost
zealot/run ->heal increase armor pen reduction

in this aspect regarding how g-cleanse are balanced they are the main basic source of counter to all (of that type) the other aoe dots in game which of course make dok/wp have something more than other healers.
Now "if" ( is debeatable but i agree) have 1 g-cleanse is so basic for the composition then, the g cleanse should became a basic core function of healers, and rather to be nerfed or limited should be spread and rebalanced to be used by all healers.

so:

soluton 1: too drastic loose the chance to cleanse yourself is a doom, A)when you have a CD decrease you are **** if you cannot cleanse yourself, B) dok/WP dosen't have a lot of tools to heal while kite like other healers, ok you wanna put in line healers but this would be overkilling.
Also this do not fix the CD decrease problem which would still make g-cleanse over the top in most of situation where dok/wp can back line and would not suffer from being immune to cleanse which comprende all the mass Orvr and most 12vs 12, so this solution would nerf g-cleanse only in sc from an imbalanced 12 vs 12 to an imbalanced 6vs 6.

solution 2:
solution 2 would be a buff to put ti simply; this way with a CD decrease you will end to have 1 healer that will cleane only what can be cleanse aoe and will do it even x6 every 0,5 sec while the other healer can st spam removing what is instead ST
This would make CD decrease synergy with cleanse more broken now. So for exemple you would not have anymore the chance that a St cleanse remove 1 dot that a g-cleanse could had removed basically make the g-cleanse remove 1 dot less.

solution 3:
ppl just gona take less point in heal path and will roll more in mid path, you jsut gona nerf the heal capacity which mean to heal the same, ppl will spec EVEN more as backline healers; still you will not touch the synergy with CD decrease

solution 4:
BINGO! (partially)

why? first thing first this only partially solve the problem, because a 5 sec CD is perfect on the aoe cleanse while it is not when the CD decrease go into action.
The secopnd problem it's that if the g-cleanse it so basic this will enforce the use of 2x cleanser to compensate for the nerf.
So you can't jsut nerf it, the g-cleanse need to be redistribuite to all healers as a core healer feature.
--->what core feature healers share? what other classes share ?

tanks--> juggernaut/challenge/taunt/guard
mdps---> 10 sec immunity to snare /root + charge
Rdps--> aoe root
rdps--> cleanse, ress, g- heals.

Some may have faster aoe heals but all have the value proportionally or almost proportionally to the cast time. All ress work in the same way (shammy/am tactic do not ress 6 ppl so even if faster it's still balanced and require a tactic)

There is a discrepancy in the core cleanse feature which is the problem.
All healers at the core are not created equals-> dok/wp can g-cleanse the other not.

This is the fundamentally error to fix first, the second error is to fix the broken synergy with the CD decrease
so solution 4 with some corrective it's the best

4-A--> all healer can g-cleanse (DOK/WP need the tactic) the CD of a g-cleanse is 10 sec but the CD of ST cleanse is still 5 sec which is exactly like 1 -g cleanse every 5 sec right now. Under CD decrease both have 5 sec CD actually make the g- cleanse not spamable anymore.
This would reverse the system by make dok/wp the only healer which can St cleanse and would have a spamable cleanse under CD decrease but ST instead group. It make you choice from remove 2 st from 1 ppl for exemple vs 1 from each as a dok/wp so if you think ppl will get st focussed and buried over dot this will make it for you. The nerf actually hit 2 st cleanse that would be made every 10 sec so it's pretty traded well for the chance to cleanse some aoe snares in game actually give a direct counter to those aoe snares.

4-B--->all healer can g-cleanse for base and the CD is 10 sec but dok/wp tactic reduces the CD to 5 sec-->but make immune to CD decrease. This will fix straigh away the CD decrease problem while actually giving uniformity to all healers in cleanse actually put em more in par dok/wp cleanse as being 1 better version of a g-cleanse and not the only g -cleanse in the game.

4-C---> dok/wp remain the same, all other healer gain access core to the g-cleanse while dok/wp need to spec for it.
RP tactic for istant cleanse should be removed if this is pick to avoid brokne g-cleanse; still they should be made immune to CD decrease this way all healer could cleanse all group every 5 sec, wp/dok would require to spec for it, and no broken CD decrease combo. (this is likely the easiest and lazy but less invasive fix).

[Tesq]

p.s cannot modify my post and fix my bad grammar sy (tell me i do not have the requisite)

[bwdaWAR]

Here are two ideas I thought of regarding issue 1 and 2.
To address the cost being the same as single target cleansing and no disadvantages for using it as such, the cost could be increased, for example, to 75, but with every target (except the caster) that actually has one effect removed, it'd refund 10 resource, down to the current/single target 25. This would mean higher cost as many here suggested, but reward players for "proper" use of group cleanse. It would also need some planning/tactics since the caster would need to have that 75 resource to use it, even if they get 50 right back; plus the more they cleanse, the less it costs.
As for the ease of use problem; there are a few ability effects that switch targets to the nearest available target on certain conditions, like Rune of Serenity. The group cleanse could apply this mechanic: the cleanse will check the defensive target for any effects it can remove. If there are any such effects, it removes one and moves to the nearest teammate (as long as they're in a range, say 50-100ft of the caster's defensive target) it hasn't checked yet and so on. It will end when it removed one effect from everyone or if it found someone without anything to cleanse. This way, it's up to the caster (and their team's positioning) to control just how many effects will their group cleanse remove since it'll stop at the closest teammate without any cleansable debuffs.

[footpatrol2]

What I wrote in the spoiler below is somewhat derailing from the specific discussion but I believe should still be looked at because it is heavily inter-related to the topic. In the spoiler below I'm talking about perspective and lightly touching how cleansing power tactic and Khaine's withdrawal morale 2 effects are inter-related and part of the game balance.

Spoiler:

The only change I think that should be made is that Dok's have their group cleanse tactic removed and replace it with something creative. Dok's group cleanse tactic wasn't part of the original design and was conducted as more mirror pushing for the community which was a lazy fix by mythic. Also, the mythic morale gain rates for a full group should be implemented because the Dok's group cleanse is tied to morale. Mythic morale gain rates are important because it allows earlier access to m2 Dok group cleanse then is currently available in RoR. There are many other reason's on why to implement the original mythic morale gain rates but I won't get into it here because that is not the topic of discussion. Dok's still have their group cleanse via morale which is stronger then the WP tactic as it should be because it is morale.

Spoiler:

The limitations of what the WP can actually cleanse is enough for balance and to force mixed group comps to include a variety of healers if they desire to due so.

Why is that? - Azarael

You often find tactics and morales that does the exact same things. But the effect of the morale is slightly higher, but also come with a 1min cooldown. The classes that have these morales often have a way increase their morale rates or have a class within their race that can do so. The other way this was ballanced was by giving those classes that didn't have very good morale rates better earlier morales. There's been a couple changes since then ofc. The most game changing ones imo is the removal of the Morale tactic for DoK and giving Zealots the Ressist+Armor buff morale without doing anything about their tactic aswell as giving DoK Group Cleanse tactics, wich imo is really bad ballance choices.

I am convinced that some tactics and morale's were tied to each other as far as game balance is concerned. Maybe others are not, cool. It would be interesting to hear Why they think they are not.

I think it is important to recognize the history of the changes made in this game when looking at game effects and cherry pick out the good design decisions and discard the bad. The WP cleanse tactic and Dok morale 2 are only one pairing. There are many other pairings that can be made with this perspective. I could make a long list of pairings that are set up like this. The Dok having a cleansing tactic is out of balance from how the rest of this game is set up. Should I list other pairings and show how the Dok having a cleansing tactic is out of balance?

I think it is important to try to understand the original design and build up from there, instead of trying to handle the train wreck situation we have been left with at the end of AoR. Maybe RoR wants to build off the train wreck situation, I don't know. Both are valid approaches.

Why is trying to understand the original design important?
Because there are traces of the original game design still left all over the place in this game, but so much change has happened that we are left with fragmented pieces of a game as far as balance is concerned.

A lot of the stuff mythic did was terrible, messed up and needed to be changed. SO MUCH OF IT WAS WRONG. But...some of what mythic did wasn't that messed up... but got changed anyway. I think the original design was correctly set up in this specific situation and was the most balanced, meaning inline with how other game effects were handled. This is a nuance point and i'm trying to not write a book here.

We can make completely new things or we can rollback a design approach. I like the rollback option and feel that it is the most inline with balance because a lot of other things are set up this way.

The changes that Azareal is suggesting I feel are valid for discussion on the WP tactic because it is addressing the effect. I feel the DoK's tactic should be removed and a discussion on the Dok's m2 group cleanse should be discussed also. The Dok's group cleanse should be stronger then the WP tactic because it is morale. I don't know what those changes to the Dok's m2 should be or IF there should be changes. Maybe group cleanse everything off of everyone except for himself? That is somewhat inline with Azareal's suggestion.

[Toldavf]

Addressing the cost perhaps a base cost of 25 and 5 for every debuff cleansed after the first would be appropriate. This would increase the cost a scaling amount equal to its usefulness.

As a side note i would caution baby steps balance is generally a case of tweaking not massively overhauling things.

[7rere7]

Addressing the cost perhaps a base cost of 25 and 5 for every debuff cleansed after the first would be appropriate. This would increase the cost a scaling amount equal to its usefulness.

As a side note i would caution baby steps balance is generally a case of tweaking not massively overhauling things.

No doubt a fair debuff for WP/DOK group cleanse tactic.

If AM/Sham get a group cleanse would Isha's Encouragement and Green Cleanin tactics stack with them?

The Zealot already has a fast cleanse with Endless Gifts tactic.

[TenTonHammer]

Addressing the cost perhaps a base cost of 25 and 5 for every debuff cleansed after the first would be appropriate. This would increase the cost a scaling amount equal to its usefulness.

As a side note i would caution baby steps balance is generally a case of tweaking not massively overhauling things.

but both those classes have the AP on heal crit tactic to feed them AP

and a mirriad of other sources such as gear, potions etc...

I dont think an AP cost increase will hit WP+DoK "hard"

[Toldavf]

Addressing the cost perhaps a base cost of 25 and 5 for every debuff cleansed after the first would be appropriate. This would increase the cost a scaling amount equal to its usefulness.

As a side note i would caution baby steps balance is generally a case of tweaking not massively overhauling things.

but both those classes have the AP on heal crit tactic to feed them AP

and a mirriad of other sources such as gear, potions etc...

I dont think an AP cost increase will hit WP+DoK "hard"

Urm neither healer uses ap that much. I thought it was obvious that the cost increase would be levied against the class resource and not the ap pool.

This would give the ability a cost of 25 for a single dot with a maximum cost of 50 SE/RF for a full 6 debuffs removed.

[TenTonHammer]

I thought it was obvious that the cost increase would be levied against the class resource and not the ap pool.

Ah

my mistake