Scenarios - getting rid of leechers.

[Tklees]

So the main issue I see here is that players have a carrying range of skill. I hate to say this but wow solved this with a ranked PvP and a non ranked PvP system. If you went into ranked without a decent setup and gear you would expect to lose or be carried by a better player. And then you could run non ranked on your alts or just to have fun.

I truly think this is the only way to solve the current pug stomp issues we have.

So what happens when someone with Best-in-Slot gear joins an unranked SC with a bunch of undergeared alts?

There has been some talk internally of tracking individual performance metrics some how and filling queues based on that, but frankly, I don't think we have a large enough playerbase to adequately split like that. In other words, if the matchmaking system has to account for 1. Group size, 2. Archetype presence 3. Player ELO, we'll never get anywhere.

Unless the dev team plans on bringing back doomflayer and warpedforge BiS gear and plan on keeping worn sov, BiS gear won't be an issue IMO. This game has an issue which is that the average player is being forced to play against premades such as Old school or Gankbus and they simply can't compete. They lack coordination and are unable to form a proper group for themselves. Pugs will literally complain about never having healers in scs all day in advice and do nothing themselves to fix it. That's why they are pugs. You can't make players play thier class better or in the right spec or use basic **** like guard. So we either seperate the guppies from the sharks of we wait until the sharks get fat and slow and bored.

[Jaycub]

So the main issue I see here is that players have a carrying range of skill. I hate to say this but wow solved this with a ranked PvP and a non ranked PvP system. If you went into ranked without a decent setup and gear you would expect to lose or be carried by a better player. And then you could run non ranked on your alts or just to have fun.

I truly think this is the only way to solve the current pug stomp issues we have.

So what happens when someone with Best-in-Slot gear joins an unranked SC with a bunch of undergeared alts?

There has been some talk internally of tracking individual performance metrics some how and filling queues based on that, but frankly, I don't think we have a large enough playerbase to adequately split like that. In other words, if the matchmaking system has to account for 1. Group size, 2. Archetype presence 3. Player ELO, we'll never get anywhere.

Just because a system can be abused or is a bit flawed doesn't mean it shouldn't be implemented, pretty much every huge competitive game out there uses some kind of MMR. I like to think SC's in WAR could sort of be that.

There is usually 3 different types of play,

Casual (which would be solo que scs), where you are not allowed to que with more than 2 people and there is no stats/MMR tracked it is just casual as the name suggests.

Then there is ranked que where you have 2 different sub groups, solo players with group fragments (2's and 3's), and full team/premade vs other full teams. Here you have you stats tracked and gain lose MMR or bracket rating etc... Usually you have separate MMR for full premade and solo/fragment que

Then you have the upper echelon of competitive play via things like invite/skill group only pug/Team MM with season (similar to like ESEA for CSGO) then further in your have your local/small LAN tournaments, and then at the very top you have your organized/official LAN tournaments like the the valve majors for their games and leagues like ESL/Dreamhack etc...

But ya setting up all this division within our small userbase would be impossible, most nights NA there is usually like 1 maybe 2 concurrent SC"s going on in T3.

But even with a small population maybe you guys could setup a day every week or bi weekly were there is a 6v6 scenario that only allows groups to que for it, and it lasts like 4-6 hours so guilds know when to be on and you can have the best possible showout for it. It could also be a good indicator of how well MM could work on the server if we had the population to support it 24/7.

[mursie]

An idea:


Group Que

Solo Que


I think you'll be amazed at the results. For clarification, the group que'er is for any size group (2, 3, 4, 5, or 6)
Pugs will solo que and face other solo que pugs.
Groups will face groups.

I predict group ques will not happen very much. Solo ques will be the norm. Some premades will try to solo que sync and may be successful during low pop times... but during EU timeframe with 900 ppl on... the solo que will be popping and should largely be quite competitive/balanced.

Group ques will give the minority group quers their premade funsies.

[Jaycub]

An idea:


Group Que

Solo Que


I think you'll be amazed at the results. For clarification, the group que'er is for any size group (2, 3, 4, 5, or 6)
Pugs will solo que and face other solo que pugs.
Groups will face groups.

I predict group ques will not happen very much. Solo ques will be the norm. Some premades will try to solo que sync and may be successful during low pop times... but during EU timeframe with 900 ppl on... the solo que will be popping and should largely be quite competitive/balanced.

Group ques will give the minority group quers their premade funsies.

If you did group que it would have to be 6 mans only, the difference in ability between a duo, 4 man whatever, compared to a fully decked out 6 man is huge. Right now you won't notice it that much maybe, but if you add in a pseudo competitive que people will start trying a lot harder than they are now.

[mursie]

An idea:


Group Que

Solo Que


I think you'll be amazed at the results. For clarification, the group que'er is for any size group (2, 3, 4, 5, or 6)
Pugs will solo que and face other solo que pugs.
Groups will face groups.

I predict group ques will not happen very much. Solo ques will be the norm. Some premades will try to solo que sync and may be successful during low pop times... but during EU timeframe with 900 ppl on... the solo que will be popping and should largely be quite competitive/balanced.

Group ques will give the minority group quers their premade funsies.

If you did group que it would have to be 6 mans only, the difference in ability between a duo, 4 man whatever, compared to a fully decked out 6 man is huge. Right now you won't notice it that much maybe, but if you add in a pseudo competitive que people will start trying a lot harder than they are now.

Ok - basically all i'm trying to get at is this:

Create an avenue for players to play in an environment they feel is not "imbalanced". Basically - a solo que system. Make the solo que a 6v6 scenario. (if metrics identify that solo queing is super popular expand the size of sc's but start at 6v6 size to gauge).

Basically - keep the currently que as it is. Completely allowing any and all players of any group size to play w/e they want.

Then - create a secondary que that is only solo que'rs. Thus, players joining this que expect to find only other solo pugs. I think this solves the problem.

[Jaycub]

that's a good idea, but I still think the population wont support it at NA times anyways.

The problem I see is if you were going to solo que and you were smart you would stay far away from anything but that 6v6 so you don't run into a premades increasing you chance of winning by a good amount.

So premades probably won't get many if any at all pops during late NA, and everyone will be forced to solo que the 6v6 to get a pop.

But it is an alpha, and i would like to see the devs try different things out for like a week and collect data. Maybe they can use it to come up with the best compromise.

[zabis]

I vote for an all-out, free-for-all scenario. No teams, no friends, only enemies.

[mursie]

So premades probably won't get many if any at all pops during late NA, and everyone will be forced to solo que the 6v6 to get a pop.

Ahh, but there in lies the great conundrum. Read these boards long enough and you will find evidence that the game is only about group premade 6v6 play. If a solo que is implemented and it is found that only solo que happens... then one could stand to reason that the game seems to be enjoyed more from a solo play perspective (granted the solo players form a group inside the scenario but they are not a premade group).

At which point, one would have to ask, how should this game be balanced? For the majority that play one way, or the minority that play another?

At the end of the day, this is all just postulation and riddles. Because clearly your idea that premades won't get many pops would never happen since that is clearly the preferred way to play.

Or is it....

*Mind Blown*

[RyanMakara]

I vote for an all-out, free-for-all scenario. No teams, no friends, only enemies.

Remove group queue from specific scenarios in which free-for-all can work, done.
People with premades could still solo queue simultaneously and hope they get into the same SC when the same SC pops for all solo queued members, like we did before group queuing was fixed, then form their party in the SC groups.

[Renork]

I vote for an all-out, free-for-all scenario. No teams, no friends, only enemies.

Remove group queue from specific scenarios in which free-for-all can work, done.
People with premades could still solo queue simultaneously and hope they get into the same SC when the same SC pops for all solo queued members, like we did before group queuing was fixed, then form their party in the SC groups.

A premade (a real premade) wants to fight other premades because it's challenging and fun, thus there should be a system in place that is strictly for premade vs premade. There should be a pug generator as well and if a premade attempts to solo queue to get in, then there should be an internal "lotto" system that makes it so people that queue within a 5 minute window should be placed in different scenarios.