Improving the 2H blackguard playstyle

[Uchoo]

I would actually like to somewhat retract my earlier statement of "Archetypes are not defined by the cc they deliver."

Archetypes I feel are not, but individual mirrors are on a fundamental level.

For example:

SH/SW: Heal debuff, Ranged Slow, Ranged Execute, high damage cast time attack that deals magic damage.

AM/Shaman: Magical Infusion, aoe detaunt, GTAOE snare, heal debuff

Black Orc/Swordmaster: High damage channeled attack, knockdown, group hot on BE/WB proc, avoidance channel

Chosen/kotbs: cone mez, knockdown, aura that effects healing, avoidance buff

DoK/WP: Group Hot, AA haste, crit/parry buff, execute attack, group bubble, everything in their healing trees.

Sorc/BW: High damage backload, channeled attack, insta cast nuke, channeled aoe attack, resistance debuff

WE/WH: Knockdown, crit damage, heal debuff

WL/Marauder: Huge armor debuff, 25% damage boost, channeled aoe, execute attack with guaranteed crit, heal debuff, aoe dot

Engineer/Magus: GTAOE DoT, Rift/EM, long cast time huge range attack, dot that explodes in aoe

Slayer/Choppa: Heal debuff, channeled attack that heals, crit with a 2H weapon, aoe slow, increased targets on their aoe attack, rage dropping abilities no longer drop rage

Runepriest/Zealot: Single target mez, shield on heal proc, rituals, crit chance on flash heal, channeled attack, heal debuff

IB/BG: self heal, guaranteed avoidance for a few attacks, outgoing heal debuff

These are the things that I believe define a mirror, mostly in their spec choices. One of the few glaring anomalies is that lack of anything defining for the BG/IB in their offensive tree. They have a channeled attack that they share, but that tree is so vastly different from one to the other that you can't really say that anything defines it between the 2, like you can find in any other comparison of the mirror classes. I believe this to be the 2H knockdown as it so defines the 2H IB build, it should as well define the 2H BG, even with their great and vast differences.

[Uchoo]

@Noisestorm: Not every offensive Tank is defined by a 2H weapon.

I could use the same situations provided with a SnB fully defensive Black Orc using Tree Hit Combo with Gork Smash and maybe Stab You Gooder, as that provides more dps than strictly a 2H or a highly offensive stat choice will.

So a counter-generalization of 2H vs SnB for an offensive offtank isn't the best comparison without specific examples (E.G. Swordmaster's Ether Dance requires a GW).

In a more pertinent example: a SnB Malice BG offers everything that 2H Malice BG does, except for a high damage aoe crit buff. They instead have a 5s knockdown, block chance, and nearly as high of damage potential, especially with Enraged Beating. Adversely, the Ironbreaker has a knockdown, a channeled attack, and a tactic that all require a GW.

That is why people have been making that comparison in this thread. There is barely a reason to use a 2H with the Malice tree.

[Uchoo]

Playing bg on t1... It rocks. Borderland op. But I guess 2h bg becomes weaker later? When exactly 2h bg starts to suck?

Shield of Rage doesn't make you a god after T2 as it doesn't scale with any stat.

Regarding a knight with a 2H. The only incentive they have to use a 2H besides damage is Arcing Swing, unless you are min-maxing for Runefang procs and want to completely avoid block chance.

[mursie]

Mirror vs mirror is not a comparison because mirror ===========================!!!!!!!!!!!!!!mirror
Got it? Classes are not mirrored 1:1 in RoR and were not in WAR.

If this is your entire argument then we'll have to agree to disagree. Yes, at launch classes were not mirrored. But from BW/Sorc to Shammy/AM and on down the list, I can point out multiple revisions made to each faction to bring the class "mirrors" more inline with one another.

Usually these changes are on fundamental aspects of the class. I would say that runaway is one of the lone exceptions that was never mirrored (of course there are a few others).

Given that the IB and BG are basically mirrors, the KD on 2h BG missing is a fundamental omission. Something that could easily be addressed and remove further debate that IB is clearly superior to BG in all most every facet.

So yes - this discussion is about mirrors. Mirroring is effective balance. It should not just be overlooked because that is some kind of trendy statement for you now. It was the primary balancing tool done by the live WAR team for the duration of the game... and while the job was not complete at the games conclusions...it had made many many strides to mirror the classes.

[Nanji]

Mirror vs mirror is not a comparison because mirror ===========================!!!!!!!!!!!!!!mirror
Got it? Classes are not mirrored 1:1 in RoR and were not in WAR.

If this is your entire argument ...

It is not, you just made that up. Adress my other points and try harder.

Again you want to morph RoR into a 1on1 game where a class should be a mirror of its counterpart.

I would suggest you see it like this:
Realms are mirrored/balanced as a whole,
every realm has 12 classes and their mechanic was mirrored, aswell as some keyabilities, in order to make balancing easier.

Most classes are not even close to be their respective "mirror".
Forcing this might result in a massive imbalance.

[Uchoo]

Yes, at launch classes were not mirrored. But from BW/Sorc to Shammy/AM and on down the list, I can point out multiple revisions made to each faction to bring the class "mirrors" more inline with one another.

Usually these changes are on fundamental aspects of the class. I would say that runaway is one of the lone exceptions that was never mirrored (of course there are a few others).

This is true, most of the balancing precedents from Mythic were to ensure that classes had the fundamental abilities mirrored.

Run away of course is a racial tactic, they never did consider racial tactics for mirroring. That would probably get a bigger outcry from the community than other mirrors.

Of course, the strength of Run Away was later seen in Odjira and the renown abilities.

[mursie]

Again you want to morph RoR into a 1on1 game where a class should be a mirror of its counterpart..

I'm not asking for RoR to be a 1 on 1 game. I'm saying the conversations for ability changes are in large part due to mirrors. It is because of the 2h IB kd that BG's even identify the omission as an issue. If both did not have it... you wouldn't have seen this thread.

If you ignore the idea of mirrors then you are blinding yourself to the reality of MOST of the classes changes made to WAR during live.

The argument is simple: Either -

A - you want all classes to be unique with no mirror. Doing so creates difficult balancing issues but gives uniqueness to all

B - you want classes to fundamentally mirror. Uniqueness lost - but equality amongst both factions gained.


If you review the decisions made during live - I believe you can say they started with A - and then ended moving as close as they could to B.

[Nanji]

Again you want to morph RoR into a 1on1 game where a class should be a mirror of its counterpart..

I'm not asking for RoR to be a 1 on 1 game. I'm saying the conversations for ability changes are in large part due to mirrors. It is because of the 2h IB kd that BG's even identify the omission as an issue. If both did not have it... you wouldn't have seen this thread.

If you ignore the idea of mirrors then you are blinding yourself to the reality of MOST of the classes changes made to WAR during live.

The argument is simple: Either -

A - you want all classes to be unique with no mirror. Doing so creates difficult balancing issues but gives uniqueness to all

B - you want classes to fundamentally mirror. Uniqueness lost - but equality amongst both factions gained.


If you review the decisions made during live - I believe you can say they started with A - and then ended moving as close as they could to B.

WAR showed and RoR shows that there is a third way that works pretty good.

This mechanic and key abilites mirroring that was done just made the whole balance process easier.
Like less variables reduce the amount of equations you need to solve a problem.

[mursie]

WAR showed and RoR shows that there is a third way that works pretty good.

I don't follow what you are trying to say here. What 3rd way?

This mechanic and key abilites mirroring that was done just made the whole balance process easier.
Like less variables reduce the amount of equations you need to solve a problem.

Agreed - mirroring works and makes things easy. Thx

[Uchoo]

Like less variables reduce the amount of equations you need to solve a problem.

Wouldn't you agree that MORE mirroring reduces variables, thus making it an easier problem to solve? I don't think we need to go that far, just ensure parity in the fundamentals.