Destro morale pump - SM/BO dominance

[Annaise16]

I wonder how you can so easily dismiss the importance of the IB's armor debuff.

because Force Opportunity is better?

Groups don't always contain WLs.

[Jaycub]

I wonder how you can so easily dismiss the importance of the IB's armor debuff.

because Force Opportunity is better?

Groups don't always contain WLs.

This is about 6v6, so the most meta milking comps you can come up with.

The benefits of swapping out SM/Knight for IB to allow you to run a DPS other than WL just isn't there. It's not like WL is gimp and you would get a huge boost by running a 2nd slayer or WH.

[Vayra]

I just have a question for you guys: Why do you care about 6v6 balance? To me making balance suggestions based on 6v6 performance is the same as making them based on 1v1 performance, completely and utterly useless, as it's not a supported format in the game. All PvP game modes (with the exception of, what, 3 scenarios, 1 of which is implemented) start at 12+ people a side. There's no real point considering balance for lower numbers than that, and imo all balance discussions should be based around warband scale.

[TenTonHammer]

I just have a question for you guys: Why do you care about 6v6 balance? To me making balance suggestions based on 6v6 performance is the same as making them based on 1v1 performance, completely and utterly useless, as it's not a supported format in the game. All PvP game modes (with the exception of, what, 3 scenarios, 1 of which is implemented) start at 12+ people a side. There's no real point considering balance for lower numbers than that, and imo all balance discussions should be based around warband scale.

becuase what everimprovements are made for 6v6 will also improve the game for 12v12/24v24 becuase all they are are just 2-4 6 man grps secondly if you try and balance for 12v12 or 24v24 that is impossible because WBs have not set unit compostion and thier are simply far too many players and factors to effectivly balance effectivly from that prespective

[Jaycub]

6v6 is considered the "competitive" scale of the game. And its transferr over pretty well to virtually all 12v12 scenarios (the main game mode for scs?).

Ideally all classes would be balanced or at least have a place in both 6v6, and large scale ORvR fights such as keep seiges etc...

For example magus is amazing for keeps, but totally trash for 6v6. WH/WE are good in the 6v6, but perform poorly in large scale fights, however the WH/WE find a niche in RvR in ganking or infiltrating a keep etc...

I would think the goal of balance is for all classes to have a viable function at all scales of play. Right now IB/BG really only shine in 1v1, there isn't really a reason to take them over other tanks in 6v6, or in a warband in RvR.

Edit: Also as tenton has said, most game mechanics function on the 6 player level (Gaurd, group heal, buffs, etc...) And warbands are essentially just a collection of 6 man groups with a unified UI and chat channel. That being said larger scale fighting does open up new possibilities for classes and group comps like Magus/eng, aoe specs, hell even DPS zealot :^)

[roadkillrobin]

I just have a question for you guys: Why do you care about 6v6 balance? To me making balance suggestions based on 6v6 performance is the same as making them based on 1v1 performance, completely and utterly useless, as it's not a supported format in the game. All PvP game modes (with the exception of, what, 3 scenarios, 1 of which is implemented) start at 12+ people a side. There's no real point considering balance for lower numbers than that, and imo all balance discussions should be based around warband scale.

becuase what everimprovements are made for 6v6 will also improve the game for 12v12/24v24 becuase all they are are just 2-4 6 man grps secondly if you try and balance for 12v12 or 24v24 that is impossible because WBs have not set unit compostion and thier are simply far too many players and factors to effectivly balance effectivly from that prespective

Sorry but that is completly false.
Warbands have unit compositions that revolves around focusing areas rather then indivudal players. For example you bring a dps Zealot to healdebuff, armor debuff and corp ressist debuff an area so sorcs, choppas and marauder in the warband can more efficantly kill whats in the area. You bring a Magus to force people into the chosen area. And this is just the dps classes. And there's alot more to it aswell that i didn't even touch. This is stuff that doesn't even translate to 6v6 scale and one of the reasons why you have to look at the game from more then a 6v6 point view.

[Vayra]

That being said larger scale fighting does open up new possibilities for classes and group comps like Magus/eng, aoe specs, hell even DPS zealot :^)

Exactly, and what's very strong in a 6v6 might be utterly useless in larger scale battle, such as melee train at a keep siege. And if balance is decided around 6v6 those specs might be nerfed to be even less useful in ORvR, while the aoe specs that shine in ORvR but suck in 6v6 might be buffed too much (that last one is unlikely I admit as everyone should be familiar with the old bomb squads but the premise still holds).

As for the argument that warbands are just a collection of 6man groups and that if they were balanced so would the warband, the exact same argument could be made about 6v6 being made up of single players so if 1v1 was balanced so would 6v6. It just doesn't follow. I could take 4 groups that separately would be absolute trash in 6v6 and they would **** all over 4 groups of KotBS/SM/SL/WL/RP/WP or whatever is the top 6v6 configuration atm. An example here would be (for destro) a mix of Chosen/Chosen/SO/SO/DOK/DOK and Chosen/BO/SO/Choppa/DOK/DOK with a Magus and a Zealot thrown in somewhere. If you balance based on 6v6 performance the order group I listed would likely be deemed OP and nerfed, while the destro groups would be deemed shite (rightly so) and be slated for buffs, while the tables turn completely once you up the scale of the fights to where AOE can be utilized more effectively. edit: see also roadkillrobin's post above for further reasons why 6v6 balance does not translate to larger scales

So no, I do not think balancing based on 6v6 will necessarily improve warband scale action.

[TenTonHammer]

Sorry but that is completly false.
Warbands have unit compositions that revolves around focusing areas rather then indivudal players. For example you bring a dps Zealot to healdebuff, armor debuff and corp ressist debuff an area so sorcs, choppas and marauder in the warband can more efficantly kill whats in the area. You bring a Magus to force people into the chosen area. And this is just the dps classes. And there's alot more to it aswell that i didn't even touch. This is stuff that doesn't even translate to 6v6 scale and one of the reasons why you have to look at the game from more then a 6v6 point view.

So....what you just described was a bomb group? which does run zelot tactic to stack with WAAAAGH! crop debuff? What does this specifically have to do with oRvR? why you would want a mara to spam loldemolition for AoE insted of a sorc and a choppa whom is apprantly running jagged edge insted of BF, dont wanna, SYG and Da Biggest/flanking is beyond me and what would it do? spam lotsa choppin?

But thats it once again, WB's and 12 mans are soo large and have soo many specs, and class distributions that its never uniform, its impossible to balance them unless you do massive reworks of core game mechanics , 6v6 has set compositions, is the highest level of play, and furthermore is the easiest to balance to.

[Vayra]

, is the highest level of play, and furthermore is the easiest to balance to.

Highest level of play, lol. Maybe here since there aren't any guilds fielding full warbands regularly. But that's just a population/organisation issue, not a universal fact of the game.

And while it's easier to balance to as we've shown above it does not translate to larger scales which are what the game is actually about and what (I assume) most people here came back for.

So....what you just described was a bomb group? which does run zelot tactic to stack with WAAAAGH! crop debuff? What does this specifically have to do with oRvR? why you would want a mara to spam loldemolition for AoE insted of a sorc and a choppa whom is apprantly running jagged edge insted of BF, dont wanna, SYG and Da Biggest/flanking is beyond me and what would it do? spam lotsa choppin?

What it does is show how 6v6 balance does not translate to warband scale due to the increased numbers allowing for more specialisation of each player to fit a role in the warband.

[TenTonHammer]

tell you what then, when competitive WB v WB community finally picks up then let me know so you can convince me that WB v WB is the highest lvl of play.

Becuase their are more people their is less emphasis on individual play and mistakes are more forgiving because of the increased numbers of healers present. and furthermore i specifically stated that the DPS zelot is used in 1-3-2 bomb groups

the increased numbers dosnt offer more specialization, it just means people spec for AoE stuff which certian classes like choppa's are awful at