do we have a balance problem?

[teiloh]

I think this thread pretty accurately portrays the issues the game and any potential balancing faces. It's the players themselves.

Not much of an argument.

[lyncher12]

this topic should be moved to the roleplay forum

[teiloh]

Important to not take the bait if people are trying to distract from balance issues.

[Ramlaen]

It's even more hilarious when I bring up this armor meta as the reason why apparently one career is ****, because the difference is on one career, engi and magus.
Where Engi has one of the best armor debuffs in the game and majority of their AoE is corp (only AoE I can remember that is not is Blunderbus and I am unsure of the type of damage on land mine).
I also bring up SW rework where Order got Wave of Terror mirrored, named Barrage, but sure, live in your "destro biased dev" world.

Engi spammable AoE being physical damage is one of many large disparities between Engi and Magus. This doesn't address that Destro has two AoE dps with tank levels of physical mitigation.

[normanis]

any city shows how inbalanced is 24 cap

[kirraha]

Its a balance between good and bad players. Joined pugs today and it was... yeah an experience.

Its not about balance on the sides, but on players.

[kmark101]

It is exactly on balance of the sides, but only a few classes are causing the current problem (which I think is one of the worst overall balance we have seen in a while):

- Squigherder, needless to say, is the worst abomination the game has ever seen with everything in a single class, the tools, damage and survivability is on a level that its impossible to play against in a 24v24 environment, simply because order needs to assign 4-6 players just to deal with 1 squigherder. This is not normal and should be fixed asap.

- Marauder aoe knockdown is something that order has no tool to deal with, no counterplay to it. It's just there and its coming every 20 seconds regardless of what you play or plan.

- Melee DoK, a class that can do the job of 2 classes in one, again, order has no luxury to merge two classes into a single character spot for a 24v24, so order has natural disadvantage here as well

- Blackguard is a fun class and it is only the comparison to the ancient and rockbottom IB class is where the problem lies: spammable aoe and healdebuff means every 2 BG counts like 3 IB on the damage table, much better utlities that actually scale with their class resource (awesome!), while IB's class resource increasing their damage, which in fact puts them into a massive disadvantage, because spending class resources on skills means less damage afterwards... BG has no such issue obviously, so here we lose another 1-2 order players again in a 24v24

- Morale pumps advantage for destro is still there, black ork bellows are still there, chosens debuffing order damage 10s after an engagement is still there, order obviously has no answer for these because order tanks has no such tools available

- Debuff system, especially spirit damage type, is a massive advantage for destro for the very simple reason: while this main damage type can be debuffed by 4 separate destro class in their easy-to-achieve specs, order can only debuff elemental damage type by the knight's aura. The result is you see sorcs are single target deleting people for this simply reason, while order has no answer to this in a 24v24 fight. Debuffs are irrelevant in larger battles, thats why it seems that order has the advantage in fort battles due to many BWs.

While none of these would be an issue one by one (except for the squigherder, but I recon its a tweak in progress for the class after such massive amount of changes), when you add them up all together its not hard to see why order is in a massive disadvantage in 24v24: less options, less characters (every city fight is like 28 destro vs 24 order if you look at the numerical results of the aforementoined features), options that only one side has access to.

We can only hope that these will be fixed one day, one by one.

[Naelar]

The Destrukaren brigade always flings personal attacks in every balance thread, trying to distract from game balance issues.

Important to not take the bait.

Like 'Destrukaren'?

[TreefAM]

- Blackguard is a fun class and it is only the comparison to the ancient and rockbottom IB class is where the problem lies: spammable aoe and healdebuff means every 2 BG counts like 3 IB on the damage table, much better utlities that actually scale with their class resource (awesome!), while IB's class resource increasing their damage, which in fact puts them into a massive disadvantage, because spending class resources on skills means less damage afterwards... BG has no such issue obviously, so here we lose another 1-2 order players again in a 24v24

If you go for the healdebuff you sacrifice 30% parry and you are only useful in the ST party since guarding anything else = suicide.
And while in the ST party you can't really apply your debuffs on the whole blob like you should since you'll be sticking to your dps.
Idk I find IB a fun class to play, and actually being useful as a snb tank and not just a fill is pretty nice too.

[sighy]

It is exactly on balance of the sides, but only a few classes are causing the current problem (which I think is one of the worst overall balance we have seen in a while):

- Squigherder, needless to say, is the worst abomination the game has ever seen with everything in a single class, the tools, damage and survivability is on a level that its impossible to play against in a 24v24 environment, simply because order needs to assign 4-6 players just to deal with 1 squigherder. This is not normal and should be fixed asap.

It's fresh off it's rework so fine tuning is still likely to take place, but hey might not take about 5 years like WL

- Marauder aoe knockdown is something that order has no tool to deal with, no counterplay to it. It's just there and its coming every 20 seconds regardless of what you play or plan.

Don't stack, punt, etc and you can't get knocked down more than once in 30 seconds.

- Melee DoK, a class that can do the job of 2 classes in one, again, order has no luxury to merge two classes into a single character spot for a 24v24, so order has natural disadvantage here as well

? Do you mean Shield DoK or DPS DoK? (WP Shield is superior and no a dps DoK can't substitute a healer, with their % reduced sustain)

- Blackguard is a fun class and it is only the comparison to the ancient and rockbottom IB class is where the problem lies: spammable aoe and healdebuff means every 2 BG counts like 3 IB on the damage table, much better utlities that actually scale with their class resource (awesome!), while IB's class resource increasing their damage, which in fact puts them into a massive disadvantage, because spending class resources on skills means less damage afterwards... BG has no such issue obviously, so here we lose another 1-2 order players again in a 24v24

BG has crimson death and gets wrecked by slayers(yay extra parry), while IB has better stuff for his oathfriend like the ap pump. S&B BG is an exercise in masochism and nobody wants you given any other option.

- Debuff system, especially spirit damage type, is a massive advantage for destro for the very simple reason: while this main damage type can be debuffed by 4 separate destro class in their easy-to-achieve specs, order can only debuff elemental damage type by the knight's aura. The result is you see sorcs are single target deleting people for this simply reason, while order has no answer to this in a 24v24 fight. Debuffs are irrelevant in larger battles, thats why it seems that order has the advantage in fort battles due to many BWs.

Ummm... BWs also can do timestamp builds, however i question the logic of running a timestamp build, in a warband setting, especially organised warband setting.(like city) Not to mention that Sorcs have no viable M4s, less defensive utility and overall inferior aoe spec.