DPS spec tank/healer Hypocrisy

[Daknallbomb]

Hehe If there where a rewarding As Tank for saved a life i bet there where less Probs

[peterthepan3]

Also, enlighten me why you paint guard like if it's something that requires insane amount of skill to use, because for me it doesn't. Guard is a mostly passive ability in a slow paced game where switching kill targets takes ages compared to other MMOs, i really can't see where the difficulty using guard is, other than having a good positioning.

Precisely, it doesn't take any skill to use. I never said it was difficult, I just said that it works and doesn't need to be changed because of some misconception that by doing so it would alleviate the NA population woes (which it won't, that's a completely separate can of worms).

I said I empathise with the NA lack of action, but: a) I do see a lot of NA premades roaming around during their 'peak' times; b) that is a separate entity altogether, and as much as we would like to think that X and Y may get more people playing, it probably won't as anyone who would have wanted to play the game probably has/did.

[Kali14]

This said....

I really hate guard.

In all honesty, if I was a healer, I wouldn't throw a single HoT on a non guarding tank.

You should say "when I was a healer".

Insteed "if I was a healer".

And here you have good example why playing tank is not fun:

Ok you guard someone, and you get from him 3k dmg during 5 sec and healer use HoT and heal you for 1k during 10 sec. This happened now and you are dead. Ok you drop guard and healer stop healing you. You are dead again. "Hey AM dps, what the f..k are....go f..k yourself" ...And next BAN. GG, in prison you realize it's better play RDPS like everybody, unfornatelly understand this took you so long

[th3gatekeeper]

as much as we would like to think that X and Y may get more people playing, it probably won't as anyone who would have wanted to play the game probably has/did.

Fair point. This could very likely be true. Its hard to say forsure. My anecdotal evidence based off my own experience is that I HAVE been able to get new people to try WAR, and its usually shortlived... Even if they stick around until max level, usually the appeal of ROR dies after a few very painful experiences. Heck, just yesterday a long time ROR/LIVE player who took a 6 month break came back. He mains a BO (SnB), but jumped on his Mara alt just for shits. He told me about an hour later when I got on "man I almost rage quit again, so fking stupid, im over this game and just killing time until the next MMO comes out" (his words, not mine).
When I asked what happened? He was in an SC on his Mara - which he built more "tanky". There were several tanks not using guard. A WL jumped on him, KD, and killed him in about 4 seconds. This was the "final straw" for him. He quit out of the game, got off, and an hour later was in teamspeak and I convinced him to log onto his BO and play with my BG.

Anyways, its situations LIKE this where people just have a very very rough experience. At the risk of repeating myself again (lol) I have had 2 long time LIVE/ROR players quit in the last 2 weeks from the exact same type of thing. Doing SCs late at night, low pop times, forced to solo/duo etc. You know the drill.

Anyways, I choose to be optimistic and think that many players actually would TRY ROR for the first time (as I said, I have brought people here to try before, it will maybe happen again) as well as many "retired" players often come back after a few months of "break".

Guard isnt the only problem, but it definitely contributes to people quitting - from my own experience, many times.

But! I am willing to admit, you may be right, its possible "damage has been done" and players may NOT come back, and new players may NOT try the game. Its hard to say.

[Daknallbomb]

Hmm If you get 3k dmg from guard dmg The guarded target has eat 7-8 k dmg or you dont have enough mitgation

[th3gatekeeper]

According to your point of view, we should CHANGE a core component of this game, which works perfectly fine IN GROUP SETTINGS, because of the scarce fun that it IS (BORING), so that after making guard a more FUN/active ability, the N/A time playerbase will GROW with players who will play WHATEVER THEY WANT DUE TO ANY CLASS BEING VIABLE FOR SOLO PLAY. And is gonna be so much better because PLAYERS ARE NOW NOT 100% DEPENDENT ON FRIENDS OR OTHERS IN THEIR ABILITY TO PLAY THE GAME

Here, I fixed it for you to represent my view.

And Yes, I do think Guard is 1 of the issues. RVR is another big one(you can see my other thread for that discussion).

I think if you were to ask me at a 40,000 foot view (expression) what are the two biggest issues with ROR it would be:
- RVR is not fun in its current form.
- This game sucks for Solo Play.
- MAYBE a 3rd would be: Lack of competitive SCs.

Which all leads to people quitting. They are limited in their ability to log in whenever, with whoever is online and play the game - due to the core component of the game. When they do, the current RVR system is largely boring AND... lack of competition in 6 mans - because it IS so easy to roll over pugs with a competitive group BECAUSE...... of how dependent classes are on eachother and PUG groups largely dont take effort to set up assist macros and guard etc while in spawn. So premade swaps guard (so PUGs get no kills) and also sets up MA and has heals. Each person plays the role they need to, which IS fun... But it makes the difference between a full PUG group vs a Premade group such a big difference.... its hard to find enojyment in that on EITHER side (imo).

If I wanted to smash PUGs all day I would have stayed in Neverwinter where I could single highhandedly solo an entire team of "average" players.

[ragafury]

According to your point of view, we should demolish a core component of this game, which works perfectly fine, and it's easy to get rid of, because of the scarce fun that is causing in N/A times, so that, magically, after making guard an active ability, the N/A time playerbase will boom with new players who will play tank actively and the balance will be achieved.

That's what I said about 5 times in this Thread + that there is enough content to farm for everyone.

I don't understand how ppl can not assemble a 6 man. Perhabs reroll needed classes like me?

And EU time is not different. 5/7 days 200% AAO on destro side. 2 days max a zone is destro locked during primetime.

A change of guard will not magically create new players who play a tank competent.
It will just make players leave who enjoy playing a tank in it's current state, because that's the most active thing a tank has to offer.

[Kali14]

Hmm If you get 3k dmg from guard dmg The guarded target has eat 7-8 k dmg or you dont have enough mitgation

I wrote 3k only as example. We know in main assist guarded target can get more damages than 7-8k in very short time. They gonna hit him until he die. And next reason why DPS tank who guard is not good and not fun to play. Because he have small mitgation and he fast die in pug party where is small healing.

[th3gatekeeper]

because that's the most active thing a tank has to offer.

Ummm... Are we playing the same game? I was in a 2-2-2 roam group last night AND doing SCs and cant say Guard was "the most active thing tanks have to offer" in fact I would likely say that buff, debuffs, taunt(disrupt)/challenge, KD, punt and Snare are all WAY more "active" than guard. I also had guard bug on me twice last night (said it was cast but it wasnt) which caused death and rage, just FWIW...

When we mixed our comp up (due to people logging) and lost a DPS, added a 3rd tank. We had 3 tanks, 1 DPS, 2 heals (thats all that was available) and had MORE guard to go around than needed... which made it even less "Active" as we could have someone guarded the entire time without swapping at all! So (for me) it was "follow the Choppa".

Reason 1 to look at a guard rework is because its BORING and because its BORING as well as selfless and requires the person to "stay within 30 feet of X person" is why PUGs dont use it, which leads to PUG vs Premades being zero competition as well as PUG vs PUG games being VERY frustrating for players.

My entire goal of a guard rework is to "raise the floor" without "lowering the skill ceiling" which is better for ALL players AS WELL AS making guard a more FUN/active ability to use where it requires maybe less "positioning" and more "timing" skill - both are "SKILL" Yes? Timing when to use something is often MORE "skill" required than timing WHERE to use something - especially in a game like this full of terrain bugs.

I think a happy middle ground can be had, where guard could be a "party wide detaunt" in effect, where the entire party takes reduced damage (within 50 feet) for X seconds (maybe 5) and on a 15 sec CD (just as 1 example) Which means tanks will have to coordinate and time WHEN as well as WHERE to use it, and it will also create "downtime". ALLLLL of which leads to:

- an increased "floor" since a retard tank will want to use this as a powerful defensive "frontlines" tool - even if focusing on DPS, selfishly, he will use it to help himself which allows other pugs to "group" and get benefits.
- no reduced skill ceiling - because now it takes more timing and coordination and reliance on ALL your tools and positioning rather than casting guard once, and standing near the guy and you "job is done". Youll still stand NEAR him, while at the same time, cast at precise times, and then must be prepared for the "downtime" that is coming - hopefully with another tank using his, but even THEN you have a few seconds of downtime... Which requires coordination and skill and I would argue - even more positioning skill in NOT over extending due to the downtime of the "guard" ability.

If that isnt enough "mitigation" that tanks offer OR its "too good" (which I doubt), then we can look at beefing up other tools - like Challenge reducing damage by 40% or 50% (from 30%). Or we can look at giving other tanks abilities like "Crippling Strikes" Or we can look at making something like Hold the Line accessible to all tanks as well as increasing Parry % for the party too. Stuff like this would make the tanks "kit" more rounded, more active, more fun, and I would argue - require more "skill" at the SAME TIME, making PUG groups "better".

Maybe I live in utopia.... but I think if done correctly (why not try via .ab or whatever) but I am optimistic that the current "hardcore guys" would actually find they ENJOY it more, as well as the PUGs who enjoy it more.

Seeing as this project is in alpha, with a deteriorating player base and the ability to do .ab - which allows people to TRY THINGS IF THEY WANT. I see no reason to start trying various things like this.

[Daknallbomb]

The most Activ Thing? Guard? Wow.... If you play a Tank plz swap youre class... A Tank has all Hand full to do permanent cc assist overwatch punt kd debuff helping running here running there and so on.. And youre Activ Thing is guard? Of i play my tank guard is bye far not the Activ Thing