(Mythic) origins of balance

[roadkillrobin]

It's not just the stat steal on BO,

t's the armor debuff.
Magic dmg reduction thats not ressistance wich makes it really good for berzerk choppas.
Waponskill buff on demand for choppas.
ST CD increaser wich makes Choppas melt healers.
Skull Thumper wich does alot of dmg when you melee train.
The AoE snare + Big Slash is good for getting melee trains of your guard.
The really fast morale regen for m4 panic button.

The class is just solid tbh. Always been. People just didn't bother with it coz Chosen stagger was extermly OP.

[Sulorie]

@footpatrol, roadkillrobin:
When was the last time you both played on live servers?
You guys sound like you quit one year after release, while still thinking your knowledge is up to date.

[footpatrol2]

I played till there was I think like 5 servers. Dunno when that was. I think till a year ish before it died.

Could be completely wrong on that. I played for a couple of years where I think i had to do 2 transfers.

So I just like to fling eveything at the wall guys and see what sticks. I like to see if I can do it thats just my approach.

[roadkillrobin]

I played a RP to rr100 and a WP to rr90.

[Penril]

Penril I responded on how my Greenskinz warband would respond to your group you presented earlier In the post. its new content please check it out and respond.

I won't. I told you yesterday this is what would happen: as soon as i pointed out the flaws in your group and countered it, you would come with something else, and then i would counter it again, and you would come with something else, and i would counter it again, and...

I can't do this all day long. Even after acknowledging that racial groups can be strong and competitive... you still want us to say they are the best or that the only counter to them is another racial WB? Even though your whole strategy mostly relies on getting to M3-M4 and coordinating a morale push, when your enemies can easily catch you even with your bazillion puddles (engie magnet, AM puddles, ranged KDs, etc. etc. etc.) and bomb you right away from the first second not needing to wait to M4? You claim you broke the game?



No.



Racial groups can be competitive and fun, but are nowhere close to being the best way to group in this game. I'm not even gonna try to convince you from now on, but i just hope new players who read this thread will be smart enough to figure it out by themselves.

[roadkillrobin]

The Greenskin racial isn't even very viable atm, due to lacking some tactics and morales.
But maybe on next lvl increase

[footpatrol2]

Ok building a greenskinz Waaaaaaagh warband. This is specifically what you do with your shamans.

All groups have a shaman morale booster in it.

either 12 man orc bash teams 12 ranged goblin squads
Or 18 man orc bash teams 6 ranged goblin squads.

If I got 12 man orc bash teams and 12 ranged goblin thats potentially 12 shamans
If I got a 18 man orc bash team and 6 ranged goblins thats potentially 10 shamans

Maybe breathe of mork isn't horrible. Breathe of mork is horrible granted in a 6 man with either 1 or 2 shamans.

I got 12 or 10 shamans... Redundancy... Makes a playstyle stronger. I bet since breathe of mork healing stacks. I have the option to drop all 10 or 12 breathe of morks. Thats pulsing 5k+ healing for a total of 15k+ ish healing. It heals everyone in a 30 ft radius. My orc basher teams will be in a 30 ft radius easily. This makes sense. As a premade warband leader you can sacrifice mork sez stop m1 shaman as protection for your shamans when your in kite mode but decrease the protection of your orc bash teams. In these racial groups you'll see there is trade off's. For example the dwarf morale push m4 is dependant on your Runepriests. If you poped mountain spirit (note used to be 30 sec duration) early your decreasing your morale 4 10 30ft dump.

Start either a morale drop or cycling breathe of mork on ork basher teams as needed to keep them up.
Probably burn 6 or 8 of them.

I still have 2 or 4 shaman morale's. Once m3 is established BO's can start shutting down things with his m3. Either as a coordinated morale dump of around 5k dmg or as needed to put more pressure.

Back with the shamans though. I can start sending in shamans that didn't use breathe of mork and sacrifice them in true greenskin fashion to go into the orc basher teams and pop their m3 you weren't using that for a AoE AP drain. If they live awesome. If they die I got probably 4 instant rez's and will be healing shortly after. Its a trade of either AoE AP draining and get reduced healing from rez sickness or try and just outlast em. I have options.

Obviously only send in as needed.
Once m4 is establish its just over the WAAaaagh has been established. With a 18 man orc bash team a coordinated push is around 15k dmg 30ft or I can stagger them. I have options.

All you need is your morale 2 to start the Waaaagh. I have options
I may or may not need to pop all 12 breathe of mork.
If I can get by without poping all of them and get to m3. I have more options. I can AoE ap drain.

Note also EEeeek used to knock you back in a random direction. So when you would sacrifice a shaman for a AoE ap drain he would EEeek afterwards.

Please note also... that the animations on the spells in a greenskin warband would look over the top amazing. As it did in the 18 dwarf premade groups I ran prior.

I know this is crazy counter meta and it seems you can't do what I'm talking about. I literally did this with dwarves. I wish I had video to prove it. I've done 10k morale damage dumps. Rift 10k damage dump. Everything dies. At the time mountain spirit was 30sec's. At the time we also had 25% morale boost due to tactic.

But these racial groups only need to get to their morale 4's so they can do their Morale dumps and certain classes are not needed to due them. As with the dwarf group the engie wasn't needed for them. He had his m2 to help get us there. If he died it didn't really matter to our morale dump.

Can the mixed groups have access to 10k morale dumps? Maybe they could but they wouldn't have the 25% morale boost. Now noyone has it.

Talking purely to other premade organizers. Look at the tools I'm providing and playstyles. They are highly unique and different then the current meta and you have many many options to deal with and tear apart other playstyles but you trade off being able to cleanse everything thats thrown at you but you gain a lot also. It can be pulled off and is fun to do it.

For a quick example. Since you just don't need that many tanks. A dwarf group had mountain spirit which was 30's which you could cycle and constantly keep up. After your rock hard 12 bomb is built Groups that didn't have access to a lot of tanks are able to slot the armor tactic with mountain spirit constantly up. I'm not saying Some groups don't have any tanks at all like I did with greenskinz but the traditional 2 tanks per group isn't needed after the 12. Take classes that add to your morale dump and you will be pleasantly surprised that they arn't all dps classes. There is a reason for this. Morale dumps were suppose to BREAK THE GAME. We all know about the defensive morale pushes because the meta has always been about outlasting. All I need in my dwarf warband is to keep my 12 man rock hard dwarves from not dieing. Screw getting into a rez cycle. I just need my m4 from my 12 man. Once I got it Rift wipe other groups. Then start my rez cycle as I took off pressure. Which btw I HAVE Grimnir's fury to get us all back up. I really just need actually half my warband in dwarves to survive to m4. Then your done. You have to kill my warband before I get to my M4.

This stuff works...

I'm breaking the meta. I didnt' say i'm breaking the game just the meta.

This game goes so much further. We are just stratching the surface.
The mythic must be crying...

@penril
The racial warbands are robust and can handle many different playstyles. Granted some tools were changed because the meta surrounded 6 man then expanding as opposed to 24 man's.
I didn't change anything in my warband that I presented too you.
I showed you how I would deal and pick apart what you brought with your current build.
I didn't come with something else. I used the existing tools I had to deal with what you brought.

[footpatrol2]

I'm breaking the Meta

Give me 24 equally skilled openminded players vs
24 equally mixed players

Screw rez cycle's. unless Greenskinz or HE with instant rezing.

Drop your 6 man premade mindset. Pick up your 24 man mindset.

I'm building for morale bombs.
My warband can drop probably 20k+ dmg unmitigated 30 ft with a hell of a lot of debuff's attached. if not more If I start stacking heavy hitters on on my m4's.

Mixed groups can't as well.

My racial group playstyles compliments a certain playstyle to getting me there. I don't even need my full warband to drop the opposition.

For mixed warbands its a race between time to wipe my warband. Once I got my m4 your done.

mic drop

[Gobtar]

Give me 24 equally skilled openminded players vs
24 equally mixed players

24...24...24

Spoiler:

seriously, I don't know about you but I am pretty sure the meta is built around SCs...which is 12 and 6. As penril said a group that of all skilled players will be competitive until you meet an equally skilled group with a better make up. Skewing to goblins means you will have a harder time holding terrain, and stacking shamans as your healer means your choppas will just get blown up by BWs. Stacking your group in a SKEW maximizes your strengths but also makes your weaknesses that much more exploitable.

Dwarfs can do a dwarf WB because of how solid the Dwarf classes are individually (1 or 2 Engins sprinkeled in a WB are nice). You could also do an Empire group as WH/BW/Knight/WP are all really solid.

[footpatrol2]

I remeber that the playerbase prior to release was extremely persistent that the game should be balanced around RvR and not anything else. Mythic delivered.

With these racial groups. You can build a rock hard 12 man. Which is the core of the warband. Which could join sc's.

Or you can build a Heavy 12 man hard hitters portion which is grp 3 and 4.

The game was suppose to be Realm vs Realm and the forces of destruction vs the forces of Order. Which they were suppose to work with each other.

You'd have a Chaos warband to hold positions Like dwarves.
You'd have a Greenskinz/Highelf warband to dominate the lakes.
You'd have a Empire and Dark elf warbands try and crack the dwarves or Chaos.

All of which have access to nasty nasty morale bombs.

Chaos and Dwarves are vulnerable when they move. They are Rock hard and difficult to deal with when they are set in position.

For chaos or dwarves. How hard is it for you to gain morale in a keep defense and stay alive? You block the entrance have a coordinated m4 bomb. If I have a premade warband of dwarves/chaos. I'll have 20k+ damage of morale bomb Potentially a hell of a lot more. I bet you can get retarded with how much chaos and dwarves can do on morale bombs maybe even 30k if you stack the right classes. Door goes down bomb walled defense Rift I'll blow half my warband bomb. Wipe whatever is at the door. Thats only HALF of what I have. you want to come at me again and I don't even have to pull you? Great 2nd bomb. I can bomb you every 30 sec's. Or Hell I can even Cycle my Morale bombs every 15 sec's for lower damage. I have options. So why is grimnir's fury there? For this kind of play...

You would have a Greenskinz warband escorting the chaos warband to a keep for defense Or the greenskinz warband escorting DE Warband to crack it.

The greenskinz warband would be in constant conflict with the High elves for domination of the lakes and to protect the dark elf warband to keep assaulting the keep. Remember when Keep bypass ONLY applied to witchhunters and Witch Elves?

A greenskin warband has the tools to punk a Empire warband and Dwarfs. Same with High elfs against Chaos and dark elves.

A High elf warband counters a Dark elf because of there placable m3 AoE silences from thier AM's which you have a TON of AM's.

Look at the resistant tactics. Greenskinz have a spirit resist tactic. High elfs have a elemental resist tactic.

You would have a High elf warband escorting Dwarves to keep defense or a empire warband for keep assualt. If you didn't have a high elf warband, a greenskinz warband won't let you get to anywhere.

So yeah I don't disagree with you the meta for the playerbase is built around sc's.

The game design was for racial warbands. Mythic misjudged how much organization players were willing to partake in. They figured Players would naturally see the synergy. Since probably a large portion of the playerbase came from WoW players were used to intermixed racial combat. Since there are traces of your counter in mixed groups players would take mixed premades. Noyone... was looking at and is still not looking at the SHEER power of morale bombs and the racial morale booster tactic. Please also note that Warhammer is about armies of a single race fighting other armies of a single race.

In the beginning this game had NO immunity timers because it was suppose to be played like this. Brutal.

Its super sad the playerbase never caught on.

Mythic in the end is a company about money and only cared about how many subscribers it could get. Once it started losing subscribers it started to listen to the playerbase to fix things. Hence the hack job done on the classes.

I can explain all the abilities that all the classes have with this mindset.

This was how the game was balanced.