SH vs SW difference

[tomato]

@Mursie
I'm not talking about those ones, they're all rightfully deserved.

I'm talking about you saying that: I said LS is useless. I said off gcd disarm is better than rkd,
and lots of other stuff where you just put words in my mouth, quote it partly or out of context to make your nonexistant arguments look better.

If I'm pointing out this stuff you just ignore it and come up with non theme relevant stuff or gifs.
There's no way someone could seriously discuss with you, as you only read what you want and ignore the rest.

I can't even read this post with a straight face. Absolutely hilarious.

Your LS comment was actually a concession by myself to you. You noted:

Not sure if stacking with DT on this server, if no ....... it's way less useful than ppl make it

To which I said - fine, if you think it is worthless so be it. In t4 this tactic and runaway won't be used on either toon's bar so debating its relevance in the power balance can be removed from the table. This is actually me conceding the point you made about LS. LOL! but fine - since LS isn't worthless... add it back in as to why the SW is yet again superior to the SQ. I'll take it.

Your comment on RKD. You noted:

Rkd is worse as defensive tool as it has a casttime (no instant disarm on we like sh can) and isn't off gcd.

If that means you aren't saying RKD is worse than disarm then so be it. Let's just keep it as exactly what you are saying which is "RKD is worse as defensive tool as it has castime (no instant disarm)."


Please show me the rest of my horrible out of context examples on your writings. I love seeing this stuff - it is comedy gold. please, respond with all of them. It is hilarious.

And you're just doing it again, wow.

"It is way less useful than people make it to be". That says it is useless? Just less useful, maybe overrated?
And of course, it not beeing completly useless makes sw clearly stronger. (Just ignore all the other points, focus only on this and generalize, great)

And wow the second time. I said rkd is worse as DEFENSE TOOL (can't believe I'm using caps, but it seems you seriously need that), not overall. Note the difference.
You do realize you can split up the usefulness of skills into different areas? (Example extra hyperbolic for you: Shaman aoe detaunt is worse as offensive tool than marauder armor debuff)

Amazing, even after the 10th time reading my stuff you still don't understand or/and misinterpret it, which is indeed pretty hilarious.

[mursie]

And you're just doing it again, wow.
"It is way less useful than people make it to be". That says it is useless? Just less useful, maybe overrated?
And of course, it not beeing completly useless makes sw clearly stronger. (Just ignore all the other points, focus only on this and generalize, great)

And wow the second time. I said rkd is worse as DEFENSE TOOL (can't believe I'm using caps, but it seems you seriously need that), not overall.

Ok, so to sum up:

After 12+ pages, infact SW is > SQ. thanks. That was our opinion all along but it is good to see you also agree. I knew if we went through this long enough, you'd come around. Welcome to the club!

[magicthighs]

Mursie, tomato, here's a suggestion. Go to your user control panel, click the Friends & Foes tab, and add each other as foes so you don't see each other's posts anymore. The rest of the forum users would appreciate it.

[mursie]

Mursie, tomato, here's a suggestion. Go to your user control panel, click the Friends & Foes tab, and add each other as foes so you don't see each other's posts anymore. The rest of the forum users would appreciate it.

I thought you were the nice GM!

[DefinitelyNotWingz]

Amazing, even after the 10th time reading my stuff you still don't understand or/and misinterpret it, which is indeed pretty hilarious.

Because he does not want to understand. Cheap trolling.
Guess it is ok to just leave this topic as it is right now. No unnecessary nerfs/buffs on the line.

[tomato]

And you're just doing it again, wow.
"It is way less useful than people make it to be". That says it is useless? Just less useful, maybe overrated?
And of course, it not beeing completly useless makes sw clearly stronger. (Just ignore all the other points, focus only on this and generalize, great)

And wow the second time. I said rkd is worse as DEFENSE TOOL (can't believe I'm using caps, but it seems you seriously need that), not overall.

Ok, so to sum up:

After 12+ pages, infact SW is > SQ. thanks. That was our opinion all along but it is good to see you also agree. I knew if we went through this long enough, you'd come around. Welcome to the club!

Ok to sum up:

I did a serious comparison between sh and sw, that means looking at strengths and weaknesses of BOTH classes, in contrast to that, you and stinky just listed sw abilities, called them op and that was your "analysis". Way to go.


Really nice how I called you out on your bullshit misquoting etc, and now you're going back to the sw vs sh stuff using the fact I did not only say bad things about sw to say I came to the same conclusion?
I get it it's really hard to believe that I did an actual analysis, and wasn't just biased listing sh abilities+calling them op while ignoring sw/only listing bad stuff regarding it.
But hey, I might just actually care for balance, instead of wanting my main class(es) buffed or there mirror(s) nerfed for no reason at all.

The conclusion is sw and sh a fairly well balanced. The other conclusion is, that your not able to seriously discuss balance matters or anything else, as you're permanently misquoting, misinterpreting our just putting words into other people's mouth to make up for your lack of real arguments.

[Bretin]

Let's take a look at the numbers of the raw damage gcd's you will use in T4:

Squig Herder:

166 RnS
675 (15s) YB
462 (9s) RA
133 + 165(92) | 183 + 429 (9s) EA with and w/o tactic
291 BY
191 SR
191 NSF
241 CA (rarely for silence)

The following TTs are based lvl 40:
467 SA
1075/652 FeO


/// All by meself ///

208
844 (15s)
578 (9s)
166 + 194 | 229 + 536 (9s)
364
239
239
584
1344 815
301

_______________________

Shadow Warrior

216 SFA
760 (15s) BHA
498 (9S) SS
278 B
337 FS
216 TD
216 ES
266 TS



The following TTs are based lvl 40:
579 GA
1198 | 586 FTW


If we now compare those numbers on a AbM specced SH he will have the edge in terms of raw tt damage.
Proof?
RNS vs. SFA = 4% more for the SW
YB vs BHA = 11% more for the SH
RA vs SS = 16% more for the SH
BY vs FS = 8% more for the SH
SR vs TD = 11% more for the SH
NSF vs ES = 11% more for the SH
CA vs TS = 12% more for the SH

on the lvl 40 tooltips based on waronlinebuilder.org:
SA vs GA = 1% for the SH
FeO vs FTW = 12% and 39% more for the SH

If we just ignore the last 2 abilities which might not be 100% up2date in terms of their tooltip due to the lacking base TT information on the carreer builder, we will see that the SH has around 10% more flat damage by running all by meself.

FLAT damage means it has no counterplay. So even if we take VoN - which is a buff and can be countered by a KD or pressuring the SW as soon as it pops on your buffhead or simply by breaking LoS - , the SH will have for at least 20 seconds 10% more damage than the SW does.

Now we figured the raw damage potential of those classes but still ignored the major advantage of the SH: His pet.
This slightly little tool which might be too hard to handle for certain pugs on this community is able to increase the SHs damage (burst and sustain) by more than 10%.
I don't have the correct percentage and to figure it out i'd need to make some damage tests. That again would mean i'm forced to put effort into this discussion. In return by providing it i want a reward.
Other than that you can maybe use my word and experience from playing a Squig Herder on both live - up to rr100 (my first one) - and here.

I think the pet is responsible for at least 30-35% of the total squig herder damage. That's a lot, yes.
Ofc you have to subtract the damage loss from AbM. So compared to the AbM SH a "normal" one will have 5-10% more damage. That's about equal to what a SW can get every 30s for 10s by VoN.

To buff his damage further the Squig Herder got Squig Frenzy. Since we had a look at the correct numbers and realized the Squig Herders more damage potential, it might be justified to have a high cooldown on such a great ability which provides a lot of burst.

The key to make all this work is called micro management.

From the experience of playing both pet classes WL and SH on RoR: The pets are working properly.
Even if you can't handle micro management, you can still go for the 10% flat increase to have the edge over SW damage, right? Yes!

Oh and before it gets lost:

Both classes have a unique difference in their raw damage abilities. For the SW it's Barrage (B) and for the SH it's Exploding Arrer (EA).
As for the SH i always recommend to run the completely overlooked tactic: Sharpened Arrers which just got available! It basically grants you a third DoT and great instant damage potential during damage peaks.

Barrage: 40 feet
EA: 100 feet

Damage numbers can be found above and should be pretty much self explaining. The instant damage in a dangerous territory (40f) is 21% higher on barrage.
Therefor EA (with tactic) provides 134% additional damage over 9s on 100f range.
Having a third dot ticking during a burst phase (M2) or timing it's flight time to have an additional hit in the same timestance as AA, 2 dots and 1 ability is worth a lot and guess what? Provides more burst.

Apart from the pure damage we now look at survivability because if you want to determine the balance of a class you must consider both offensive and defensive potential.

SW:
- range KD
- fast swap to Assault (off gcd)
- selfpunt
- melee disarm

SH:
- off gcd disarm
- melee kd
- melee AoE punt
- self punt
- pet taunt
- Run Away!
- RUN AWAY! (which is the best charge ingame since it doesn't break on damage)
- Gas Squig (takes a bit longer than Assault but you can avoid the casttime by using "Tastes like a chicken" or "Farty Squig") so i don't see a huge advantage for the SW
- Small self heal ("Tastes like a chicken")

Other than that the SW provides a crit buff for his group by running Leading Shots and a AP buff.
SH doesn't provide any huge group support, he is more selfish.

That's why he has more damage, more defensive and more escape tools.

Oh and Mr. Mursi:
If you compare flanking shot and behind ya, make sure to compare them with their actual tooltip. Not one at r40 and one base.
It makes you look like a fool to whoever is more than a pug .

FS: 636 / BYa: 291 (note: FS also has increased crit chance based on target health loss)

The correct tooltips can be found above.

[Bretin]

oh and after we clarified the facts i can provide the following answer for the op:

sw is easier to play. thats why pugs have more success with him. It is the common bonus of playing order. Easier to play, but not always superior.
in fact he cant compete with the SH thats why the elitist pricks of gankbus prefer him any time over the SW.

that is also the reason why you see more sw dealing damage in scs.

ps: i think we can close this now before the puglord goes full salt.

[Sulorie]

Another gankbus l2p thread, yay!

Didn't read all pages but he is right.
All the one-sided SH whining by a so-called SH main player looks inappropriate at best.

[Stinkyweed]

What are the tooltip damage comparisons for non-ABM SQ to SW and SW+VoN due to taking credit for pet damage and pet dependant abilities. My SW is still sitting at 32 so I can't compare myself yet. Thanks.