T4 ORvR - zone flips

[Leecifer]

Hey guys,

Let me know if this has already been brought up in another post, I looked around for a bit but didnt see anything.

Last night we were fighting with destro over control of CW. It got to the point where destro tried to take our keep and we successfully defended it multiple times. We took some BOs around the keep while making sure destro could not get in. We were in the zone fighting for around 3 hours and they were never able to take the keep while I was on.

Questions are:
- Is there any plans in the future to re-implement the bags for a keep defense? felt like alot of our work was for naught.

- Any plans to increase the tick for a keep defense? we defended against their WB atleast 3- 4 times but got a pretty abysmall tick.

- Any plans on locking a zone after a certain amount of time? even if no side wins? (locked neutral) it got to the point where our best option for RR and gear was just to get off and let Destro take the zone without any interference from us.

Again sorry if these topics have already been brought up, I have just recently returned to the game.

[Leecifer]

IIRC the tick for the keep defense was 600 renown

[dansari]

I think your sentiment is shared by a large number of players (maybe not a majority, who knows). Welcome back to the game. Hope you have fun. I can't really say definitively what changes will happen (the devs can share if they want but unfortunately sharing regularly prompts flaming from whining masses). What I will say is that the devs do listen and they have implemented some rvr changes to T1 that they are gathering feedback on. These will obviously be tweaked when introduced to mid tier because of the introduction of keeps and based on any feedback they want to play with.

I, too, have seen that there comes a certain point in a zone lock where it's easier for the defending side to simply wait out the lock (normally happens around 85-90%) so you can get your bags and move on to the next zone, or you beat them through attrition of players (defend for long enough that you gain a numbers advantage and push the keep). For now, that is the way T4 plays out.

[Manatikik]

I found that the biggest issue with the Keep Defensive tick was how long it took for the doors to close and for the tick to happen. It was like over an hour of us defending this Keep (mainly empty after the first 15-20 minutes where we actually had the real defense which was engaging and enjoyable) for it to not just be a burden to our side. There weren't many people on due to the time, I think Destro outnumbered us slightly on active numbers and they definitely more effective than us in terms of coordination and gear so we had no chance to get many BO's and collect resources (I don't know if that affects the speed at which the doors respawn) especially with a keep wide open that they could choose to stroll into the Lord Room if we committed our ~20 active Order there.

I think some things that could help address these frustrations are:

• Add some sort of check for population in the ORvR Lake (in total, and at the time the door goes down) and adjust timers accordingly for timers on Keeps (and BO's I guess) so that if its big 100 vs 100 fight and the Defense comes out on top they have to keep that defense somewhat there for and hour or two while if its off time and its 16 vs 30 and the defense wins they only have to keep guarding an undefended Keep for 30-45 minutes.
• Have the doors on separate timers. So the outer door comes back up after an hour but the inner door only takes 30 minutes (Numbers are just placeholders not necessarily suggestions); that way the defenders get some sort of reprieve and can venture out into the zone and work on their offense while still allowing the attackers another chance to crack the Keep without having to go through two whole doors again right away. In this case I think the Defense Tick should be based on the outer door being back up.
• One change I think could work for T4 OrvR if we're keeping this same system is to change to requirements to flip a zone be changed from 100% Control to: 100% Control or X Time with uninterrupted 80%+ (or 85/90% I'm not sure) Control; with X being based on population so if it's 400 people it takes 3 hours of 80%+ to flip but if its 40 people it only takes 20-30 minutes. This comes with two main advantages: 1) If its a high population fight it still keeps the 100% Control requirement as the most viable option so coordinated groups still make a meaningful impact and are an effective zerg buster and 2) During low population times it doesn't turn the 45-60 minutes Post-Keep into a motivation and fun killing machine for both sides because a couple small groups can stop the 100% but not have a real chance of offense themselves.

These are just my opinions based on my T4 ORvR experiences lately and what I think would be positive changes that (to my knowledge) aren't that hard/complicated/time-intensive changes to the current way the T4 Campaign works.

[Jaycub]

No keep defense and no keep reclamation bags means people "play to lose", because they want the loser bags.

Premades just run around get 100 zone kills and cap a few bos and get thier guarenteed bags thanks to secured roll bonus when their realm loses the zone. Anyone not in the top two 6 mans in the zone (6 mans being also the best groups within a warband) might as well not roll at all.

[Grock]

it got to the point where our best option for RR and gear was just to get off and let Destro take the zone without any interference from us

Which is why defenders shouldn't even have a "tick" as a form of reward, and instead be rewarded for immediate actions such as BO captures and kills(especially near BO/Keep)

(im not talking about reducing/removing any rewards, im talking about the way these rewards are given)

[Aurandilaz]

and back when only winners got ticks, people would just log to the winning side; now it's slightly less imbalanced population-wise as defenders get decent rewards too.

and since you get medals and seals and influence and renown when zone locks, obviously both sides have an incentive to get more locks a day then less locks a day. Seal of Paragon farming is extremely slow, and is now something that many players aim for, therefore it is not unlikely that many players just calculate that their best chance of getting 600 seals sooner than later is to let zones lock without putting up a 12 hour defensive battle.

Sometimes zone locks drag on and on... with both sides just digging trenches, forming frontlines, until one side eventually loses enough people who log off, and the other side wins through sheer attrition...

Suggestion to combat attrition: have Supplies returned increase Victory Point pool for your realm by ONE whole point. Instead of everyone afking after keep siege, both sides get back to contesting BOs because supplies matter, either for denying lock or locking it down faster. Even defenders should be able to return sups to their own warcamp and deny swift lock for the enemy.

[Grock]

and back when only winners got ticks, people would just log to the winning side

did you not read this line at the end?

"im not talking about reducing/removing any rewards, im talking about the way these rewards are given"

as long as losing side rewards are tied to actual zone lock that side will have incentive to not defend and instead AFK and wait for the reward

"lock" rewards should only happen for winning side so they have a better incentive for actually finishing their buisness

losing side should instead be getting comparably the same rewards(or even higher if they are outmatched) but for activity, incentivizing them to actually resist the lock and prolong the situation to, essentially, "farm more" (if not flip the zone)
(dont ask me how to give bag rewards for kills and BO captures i dont know maybe just bring them all as random pvp drops )

hope i explained it better this time

[Penril]

No keep defense and no keep reclamation bags means people "play to lose", because they want the loser bags.

Premades just run around get 100 zone kills and cap a few bos and get thier guarenteed bags thanks to secured roll bonus when their realm loses the zone. Anyone not in the top two 6 mans in the zone (6 mans being also the best groups within a warband) might as well not roll at all.

Sounds like they just need to adjust how contribution works. Maybe reduced (zero?) contribution from kills outside of BOs/keeps (and increased contribution there). Stuff like that, idk... and of course contribution rules should be kept away from the players (cause let's face it: eventually we all find a way to exploit them).

Will probably need a lot of testing, but that's what we are here for.

edit: I want to expand my reply, just to say that I despise the way some people play RvR now (pay attention that i'm not blaming the system, but the players).

Some premades just want to be the first in the zone, cap a flag as soon as possible, then move to the next BO. Carry resources? If the BO had some already, sure why not. Ride to a far away BO to pick the resources there? Nah, let's wait until the enemy takes the BO so we can take it back (moar contribution). Our keep under attack? Who cares, there are more flags to cap. Besides, we have been here for ours: let them take the keep already so the zone flips soon and we can have our bags!!! Ok, we surely have top contribution in the zone... there it is!!! 3... 2... 1... rolled a 5... got a white bag. This sucks!!!

I hope people like this keep rolling 1 or winning white bags. And even if they win a gold bag... is it really worth it? Doing 3 hours of boring RvR (because you CHOOSE to play in a boring way) just to get a piece of gear? (specially when you can be super competitive even with Ruin).

[Grock]

and of course contribution rules should be kept away from the players (cause let's face it: eventually we all find a way to exploit them)

I'd say the opposite. If these rules can be exploited some people will figure it out and eventually it will become a problem, requiring yet another change.

If rules are exploitable that is a problem in the system itself.
Just make them public so people can look at figure out how it changes the game. And then either fix new rules based on feedback/testing or accept and implement as is.