Armour vs Toughness, which is best? ( Healers )

[Bozzax]

Hint: redo math with a 100 ini debuff in mind

Compare having
150 (50)
200 (100)
250 (150)
300 (200)

[Tesq]

it never was nice stack initiative and tough, they provide a too low damage reduction x point spent.

When a skill by base hit you for 500 only by tooltip; stack tough became alredy not worth unless you are a tank or you are a BG which reach abnormus value with tough tactic.
Initiative provide too low crit reduction to be efficent in stacking.

% rule the game , % are op (really)

then toughness also apply before than armor/res...which mean his efficency get alredy cut out the bigger the damage is.
Which make the best substitution to tough anyform of damage reduction such, self damage reduction skill, de taunt/challenge, moral 4, hardly concession or TB.
So you usually do not invest to lower the chance to be crit via stats in the end game, you usually use skill or "general" damage reduction stuff, as you cannot have both for cost reasons: for exemple Tb was better than futile strike. Even with the same % the only crit value was so high that it just re-take the values of the other not crit values saved in previously attacks when use FT.

Toughness can have a niche role on those healers which are shammy/am that can have problems against wh/we.
But generally stack armor and resistences "over" the debuff value is just better.

A-for exemple a bw st debuffed your corporeal for 400(rr100) point so in order to have REAL capped resistences you need 741(cap 40%)+400(over cap 48-50%).
Same goes for spiritual, but it dosen't match for elemental as on destru side the only stuff that can debuff elemental is the kobs auras and around for 150-180(rr100) as no kobs can go full 3rd path with out leave other stuff.

B-The same goes for armor let's say a choppa/slayer have a 50% armor penetration (rr100 value) then max armor reduction you can have is 75%, so in order to have a "real 75%" armor reduction you need a 150% armor reduction.
(7400 something at rr 100 and was likely hard capped at that point), 150 cut half is exatly 75% which mean slayer choippa damage that pass are only -->35%

then to this value get apply damages reduction skill, such sets damage reduction bonuses, challenge /detaunt and hardly concession; eventualy if crit also TB but to the crit value only so it mean only to that 50% damage more from melee or 100% damage more from rdps (with out crit damages modifers).

about toughness vs initiative

there is an important point--->toughness preventing damage before the crit value get calculate so

toughnes = same use of Trivial Blow but before crit value get calculate
initiative= Futile strike

which make initiative the worst stats in game at end game:

-by efficency of renown give for crit reduction get cos futile strike have a better %(which do not happen with tough vs TB cos tough apply before crit calculation)
-by TB be better than FS so you just didn't stack initiative nor FS.

This is also worst on destru side as order have astronomical crit value.

[Vaul]

Once upon a time I did a blog post about initiative (true story). Note numbers in that post and in this graph are based on L40 but upshot is the equation for initiative means the stat is very important when you don't have much but has increasingly diminishing returns at high end. Note also the 126 debuff I draw on the chart is the SM's Nature Blade's debuff/.

[roadkillrobin]

it never was nice stack initiative and tough, they provide a too low damage reduction x point spent.

When a skill by base hit you for 500 only by tooltip; stack tough became alredy not worth unless you are a tank or you are a BG which reach abnormus value with tough tactic.
Initiative provide too low crit reduction to be efficent in stacking.

% rule the game , % are op (really)

then toughness also apply before than armor/res...which mean his efficency get alredy cut out the bigger the damage is.
Which make the best substitution to tough anyform of damage reduction such, self damage reduction skill, de taunt/challenge, moral 4, hardly concession or TB.
So you usually do not invest to lower the chance to be crit via stats in the end game, you usually use skill or "general" damage reduction stuff, as you cannot have both for cost reasons: for exemple Tb was better than futile strike. Even with the same % the only crit value was so high that it just re-take the values of the other not crit values saved in previously attacks when use FT.

Toughness can have a niche role on those healers which are shammy/am that can have problems against wh/we.
But generally stack armor and resistences "over" the debuff value is just better.

for exemple a bw st debuffed your corporeal for 400(rr100) point so in order to have REAL capped resistences you need 741(cap 40%)+400(over cap 48-50%).
Same goes for spiritual, but it dosen't match for elemental as on destru side the only stuff that can debuff elemental is the kobs auras and around for 150-180(rr100) as no kobs can go full 3rd path with out leave other stuff.

The same goes for armor let's say a choppa/slayer have a 50% armor penetration (rr100 value) then max armor reduction you can have is 75%, so in order to have a "real 75%" armor reduction you need a 150% armor reduction.
(7400 something at rr 100 and was likely hard capped at that point).

SM debuffs all ressistance with an astronical amount wich stacks with KOTB debuff.
But you are right. Flat % reduction or increases have always been the best to stack in this game. The problem with ressistances is that it caps out so easily. And resources are completly wasted if you spec into retarded high overcaps and they don't have any debuffs for it. It's better to just stack wounds at that point.

[Tesq]

i finished that post with other exemples if you want red it.

[roadkillrobin]

Yupp I agree. No point in getting Initive on destro due to Free crit from IBs, Knights and that random SM wich runs Natures Blade.. Wich kinda sucks coz not getting crited is imo the best dmg red in the game. BW doing 150 % more crit dmg, wl/wh 100% more. And not forget all on crit procs you reduce with it. Toughness just suck. Reducing like 80 dmg of a skill that does 900 on crit. And you need to invest all your resources into it.

[shamallow]

i finished that post with other exemples if you want red it.

thanks for all these infos.

Do you have some advices about talisman choices for black guard (shield) ?
it's better to stack armor ? wounds ? spirit/corpo resists ?

And for renown, TB instead of FS ?

[Tesq]

i'd say more or less use 45% increase tactic and stack tough until with the tactic at max value you have cap toughness as main thing to do (do it by renown it should requrie few effort and points)
Leave equip for armor/resistences talisman as tank.
You can avoid to use resistence talisman if you use the resistences tactic but at this low level 15% heal less with so low tought and armor mean melee will just melt you.
if you going to have something "like" this:

http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... 6:;0:0:0:0:

Then you should spent the rest of renow in defense as block/parry, dodge disrupt as you hardly going to spec for armor buff /crit reduction or shall not pass due to boost debuff on 3rd path.
If that's the way you go you can spent more point in block /parry.
if you instead take the block channeling then you can boost equally all as you loose the disrupt tactic but i prefer more have always higer general defense that a 10 sec channeling.
Something may be different for what i said my bg it's still lv 11 so i dont know the best set up in the currently meta for bg.

Tb is not working yet if not mistake, or i lost the fix in a patch note.

For future there are really few stuff on renown that are point cost effective for tanks and crit reduction,regen and initiative are not those. The most effective point cost for tank is hardly concession you hardly dont spent 20 point on that for that 10% damage reduction which stack with sov bonus.(but it still not working and it dosent feel like there is any will to fix it sadly, even if tank blow in the aoe :/)

[shamallow]

Thanks for your reply.

i'd say more or less use 45% increase tactic and stack tough until with the tactic at max value you have cap toughness as main thing to do (do it by renown it should requrie few effort and points)

why don't you use the 160 toughness tactic ?
72 toughness in renow cost 20 points. worth it ?
i have 520 toughness atm, without any tali or renow points in toughness, but with the 160 tough tactic.

but at this low level 15% heal less with so low tought and armor mean melee will just melt you

i don't understand. what's this 15% heal less ?

if you going to have something "like" this:

http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... 6:;0:0:0:0:

I have trouble adhering to this specialization.
i've tried those ones :
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... 5:;0:0:0:0:
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... 6:;0:0:0:0:

http://waronlinebuilder.org/#renown;000 ... 3000000000

but for now, I am not satisfied because I find that I can not resist enough.

[Tesq]

na the resistences tactic (i should have said magic damages) is lv 33 not 32 sy nvm for that( malekit bulwark)

instead use the core toughness tactic spent some point in middle path and get the first tactic, it boost your toughness of 45%,; swap tha with core tough tactic and you should have toughness cap for base with that, the effect last 20 sec so you just need use the effect every time you can when you are at 90+ hate.
so for exemple with 586 point in toughness you get 850 with the 45% increase from that tactic, (near 300 toughn vs 120-40), even if you get 750 is good dont worry.

The point is you need to get soul killer tactic or you are just a bad Black ork.
same goes for parry+ ap (elite training), it's the coevalent of chosen ap aura.
BG have very low defense so you may want to try that build i told you, the points in defense should be good enough but do you have full devastator? anyway with out a chosen +full devastator + heal you are still going to die.
I dont like self heals at this level but i can be wrong.
with devastaor and my build with all procs you should have

30% block (20%block rating from shield -10% renown)
22%parry
22%dodge / 67 % (hold the line)
52%disrupt / 97% (hold the line)
(this mean you could use more point in parry lowering the dodge/disrupt for have a 30% parry )

try use a lot the absorb skill, i cannot help more than this as my BG fell is relegated to t1 yet.
Anyway if you don't have a shammy or better a chosen in party you gona melt under BW/am damages.
You lack a lot of parry but you need both disrupt tactic and parry tactic to have solid deff and the utility is all in the 3rd path so you need to start from there. When you will go in t4 you can spec both. Don't worry if you dont feel very durable i saw few BG that way for the moment in t3.