Improving the 2H blackguard playstyle

[Jaycub]

It's been discussed a lot in the 2h vs SnB threads and pretty much everyone agrees what little damage you do gain (something like an extra 120 str equiv comparing the RR 70 SC weapons) is never a good trade off for losing block.

You can do good damage as SnB just as you can 2H, it's just that 2H are probably more apt to be stacking str compared to the SnB BG's who love their deftard spec.

Looking at the BG skills as a whole the only reason you would ever go 2H is to pick up crimson death, if that skill is not worth taking over the 5 sec KD and block then there is really no reason to go 2h other than looks.

With a shield as well, you don't have to stack as much defence to survive, especially considering this games guard mechanic... so that ~120 or whatever str equiv can be made up for very easily.

[Landaren]

Stop giving out pro tips like that.

Please stack str and go two handers tanks, we love actually being able to kill you easily.

[TenTonHammer]

-snip-

[TenTonHammer]

There are in game examples on other classes that support the idea to make CD last 10 seconds, and also to make it undefendable. But when we look for examples of 15% or even 20% crit chance increases you find that they have major drawbacks, in the case of the knight it cost them 2 tactic slots, they have to use a certain aura that honestly sucks, and 10% of that crit they do not receive themselves. In the case of the SW group crit buff, again they do not benefit from it themselves and it takes a tactic slot.

An undefendable crimson death, with 10 second duration of 10% increased chance to be crit is very strong, deserving of a 13 point ability and trade off between the 5 sec KD. It gives BG a debuff that is lacking on destro and wanted in groups, not something that is "oh well chosen already does that with auras XD". Asking for anymore is just too much.

I never understood what people have against PTA! It buffs your str which is nice and it benefits every mdps in you party which is nice too
Now if you feel that there are more and better auras to run, you can have them run on a second KOTBS in your grp as running 2 kotbs is actually viable unlike running 2 chosen’s as the former have many more viable auras and auras + tactics
Now you say that you don’t benefit so its not good however like you once stated it a force multiplier, it makes your group stronger at the expense of yourself, it’s the same way with SW, it makes you more desirable for groups, and that’s what this is about making 2H bgs more desirable for grps over other 2h tanks and SnB BG
Now having said all that with your current suggest we would get a hard hitting undefendable AoE attack that increases their chance to be crit’d by 10% for 10s
Destro dosnt lack chances to crit by 10, for example deeply impaled; furthermore, like enigma showed us SM/Blorc iniative stat steal significantly increases a targets chance to be crit while also being able to deal nice dmg and provide other utilities
Now in light of that I just don’t feel that it justifies 14 pts as well as the loss of effective guardability, survivability, utility like HTL! and 5s of hard cc

Next I want to point out that no one ever spec’d BoR and limiting it here to 2h only will not “pigeon hole” them as it would be basically like it was on livesince no one touched it, especially SnB BG cause it was so bad/weak, all 3 of BG’s trees are great If they want to go def they can go loathing for FwF and WoS or of dps SnB bg as they will still go up malice for HD, FoF and perhaps enraged beating

Lastly BG and Blorc are pretty close in power now with the KD changes, the latter just needs a few small buffs to be equal but 2h BG is weaker than both in partys due to the selfish nature of BG as well as how poor tanks 2h’S are without providing anything significant like crippling strikes

[TenTonHammer]

Necroing this cause i want to talk about my shifted perspective on what 2h bg needs and the changes to 2h wp give me hope for a brighter 2h bg future

So ive been doing some thinking after talking to jaycub, penril and a few others and ive come to change my mind and see it in an alternate way as i was still seeing things from the perspective of live and not RoR

2H BG really does have some major things going for it that other 2h tanks dont

First and formost the crit chance; between Crimson Death, FwF, crit chance gear as well as the target own whence to be crit the BG could have 40% or more chance to crit on a target.
Now combine this with aa haste and undetaunatable tactic and bg should have the highest damage output of all 3 destro tanks and while Black Orcs produce larger crits due to SYG, BG has more chances to crit due to higher chance and faster aa and while black orcs can steal iniative to inc crit chance its rng 1/7 chance while all bg needs to do is use CD.
Combine this with the fact you have a super punt you don’t need to spend a tactic slot for, an outgoing heal debuff that debuffs more that 50% due to the willpower debuff and is basically unclenseable due to no cooldown, WP buff for your healers along with other tools such as CtW, ET,CF, wounds deuff and FH

2h Chosen has its auras and crippling strikes, 2h BO has statsteal its own physical dmg and 2h Bg brings its own formidable damage output and a variety of utility abilities; mainly 50%+ hdbuff and superpunt

Is not having a kd unfortunate? Of course

Can SnB do what 2h BG does but better? To some extent but the damage output will be no where as high
I feel that if you dont go lolz mdps, gear and spec appropriately then i feel that 2h BG can fill that niche role that 2h tanks play in group play, very well and the downside of kd or the lack there of can be compensated for by other classes

[TenTonHammer]

BUT

Do not interpret my post as stating that 2h BG do not need buffs, they do:
First and formost crimson death needs that 10s duration back the 5s duration is a joke and second crimson death needs to be made an undefendable attack in order to consistently apply the 10% debuff, i spoke with az in game today and he stated it is possible to make attacks undefendable so there are not constraints via client implementation

Second BoR needs to be a better, more useful ability that I prefer have the requires great weapon requirement to be restricted to 2h only the reason is 2 fold, the main one being that BoR needs to be something better than a weak dot and secondly it would be nice to have an alternative to chocking fury since late game due to ap regen gear, ap pots and pots that increase ap regen rate make the ability fall off in effectiveness

Lastly 2H weapons need a more meaningful upside than 10% block strikethrough not purely about 2h bg I know but still a change that needs to happen and would help the playstyle a lot

[Joshwa70]

Personally.. I think two handers need an increase in dps. They lose a tali slot basically since you can't doublestack srr in it. They are slow and if one gets parried you don't see aa damage for close to eight seconds.

[TenTonHammer]

Personally.. I think two handers need an increase in dps. They lose a tali slot basically since you can't doublestack srr in it. They are slow and if one gets parried you don't see aa damage for close to eight seconds.

For WL's and BG's the latter point is not a problem due to 50% aa haste

increasing the damage is a problem specfically because choppas, slayers, and wls all use 2hs so it could become problematic to inc dmg

[Joshwa70]

Still missing out on possible tali slot... and aa haste isn't offered to all two handed tanks and dps

[SigmarPriest]

moved