peterthepan3 wrote:
. .that would be okay if we:
A) Were listed under SUPPORT archetype, and not RANGED DAMAGE;
B) actually had a plethora of support abilities that other classes don't already have, to justify the lack of a role
As it stands, we have a 3 second stagger (provided by kobs) and rift. That's it. That is not sufficient to render a class with two trees dedicated to LONG-RANGE DAMAGE as a support class.
Sure, we have supporting abilities; but we are a damage dealer primarily.
I 100% agree.
If Engi / Magus are not dps but support where do we fit in a group setting?
We can't compare to tanks because we lack skills like guard, challenge, htl, taunt.
We can't compare with healers, since we don't heal.
In a group setting there isn't room for a support. You can get away with 1-2 in a warband, or when running smaller numbers in RvR, but the moment you get into an serious play, you have to have a full dps'er. You have to run a 2 2 2 setup pretty much, and we just don't have the dps, and utility to make that work. No heal debuffs, no real reliable spike.
wender88 wrote:Has nobody in this thread played on Azgal together/against Pippuu?
In my oppinion, he played the engineer, how it's meant to be played. It was never meant to be a dmg class, it was meant to be a support class.
That guy would interrupt the pants of everything and anything. Constant CC spam made it very hard to play against him as it would interupt healers and casters, break up melee trains etc.
He was full def tard and mitigeted/absorbed all inc dmg i.e. very had to kill.
Imo his kind of playstyle would be perfect for the way SC's are being bombed today. Hardly anyone can run a succesfull melee train atm and just bomb everything down instead, so the CC immunity doesnt really matter anyway.
All of this ofc goes for the magus as well - they are support classes, not dmg classes.
I think we are seeing a bit of "buff mara/SW because I don't know what excatly the class is meant to do" case here.
EDIT: I'm not trying to piss of long time players of the classes (hello Renork), but I'm trying to bring a different point of view on the discussion.
. .that would be okay if we:
A) Were listed under SUPPORT archetype, and not RANGED DAMAGE;
B) actually had a plethora of support abilities that other classes don't already have, to justify the lack of a role
As it stands, we have a 3 second stagger (provided by kobs) and rift. That's it. That is not sufficient to render a class with two trees dedicated to LONG-RANGE DAMAGE as a support class.
Sure, we have supporting abilities; but we are a damage dealer primarily.
I know that magus/engi have nothing special to bring the table, but I do still believe, that there is a difference in the type of CC the class brings comepared to all other classes. An example could be the stagger. A kotbs might be able to stagger just as many targets for the same ammount of time, but that skill is still "only" PBAOE. The magus have the advantage to stagger from range i.e. the backline full of healers. And sure, a kotbs can do that as well, but it still has to get there, through snares, roots etc. I believe the it's a matter of knowing when and where to strike.
Because the RP has a ranged stagger, doesnt make the BW m3 stagger useless.
Spoiler:
Karast wrote:I 100% agree.
If Engi / Magus are not dps but support where do we fit in a group setting?
We can't compare to tanks because we lack skills like guard, challenge, htl, taunt.
We can't compare with healers, since we don't heal.
In a group setting there isn't room for a support. You can get away with 1-2 in a warband, or when running smaller numbers in RvR, but the moment you get into an serious play, you have to have a full dps'er. You have to run a 2 2 2 setup pretty much, and we just don't have the dps, and utility to make that work. No heal debuffs, no real reliable spike.
I hear what you are saying. And despite some elite players thinking the game is 100% balanced around 6v6 I disagree in some parts of that disgussion. When it comes to 6v6 only FOTM classes works and you can't make all classes FOTM. The magus is in my oppinion good for large scale fights i.e. bombing or zerging. And while I know alot of ppl want all classes to be compatible in 6v6, I'll go back to my statement from before: the class is not meant to do dmg. It's meant to support.
In a good 6man only high sustained or burst dmg works (hello BW/sorc or melee trains), so it renders some classes useless. The game is still a large scale RvR game, and thats where the magus/engi shines.
And at the end of the day - how many of you 6v6 worshippers, actually run in a tight 6man and are not just pugging in zerg?
wender88 wrote:I'll go back to my statement from before: the class is not meant to do dmg. It's meant to support.
I'm sorry, but I have to pick this out and object to it. peterthepan3 already told you that Magus is listed under the RDPS archetype and has a majority of skills dedicated to dealing damage. "The class is not meant to do damage" is wrong, and will remain wrong no matter how many times it gets reposted.
wender88 wrote:I'll go back to my statement from before: the class is not meant to do dmg. It's meant to support.
I'm sorry, but I have to pick this out and object to it. peterthepan3 already told you that Magus is listed under the RDPS archetype and has a majority of skills dedicated to dealing damage. "The class is not meant to do damage" is wrong, and will remain wrong no matter how many times it gets reposted.
Okay - I'll refrase it. It's not meant to be a top of the line dps. Ofc it's meant to do some kind of damage, otherwise it would have nothing to do, when other abilities are on cooldown. It's just not meant to be a main dps. Again support(!) dps as well as supporting with everything else, like CC.
You might have been taking my statement a bit to litteral there
wender88 wrote:I'll go back to my statement from before: the class is not meant to do dmg. It's meant to support.
I'm sorry, but I have to pick this out and object to it. peterthepan3 already told you that Magus is listed under the RDPS archetype and has a majority of skills dedicated to dealing damage. "The class is not meant to do damage" is wrong, and will remain wrong no matter how many times it gets reposted.
Okay - I'll refrase it. It's not meant to be a top of the line dps. Ofc it's meant to do some kind of damage, otherwise it would have nothing to do, when other abilities are on cooldown. It's just not meant to be a main dps. Again support(!) dps as well as supporting with everything else, like CC.
You might have been taking my statement a bit to litteral there
We're not asking to be on par with Sorc. Literally all we want is a damage attunement/fix/improvement to some skills as per suggestions given by various contributors, while we work on establishing the role a Magus -should- have and how we can go about that.
no idea why people would still oppose that.
peterthepan3 wrote:We're not asking to be on par with Sorc. Literally all we want is a damage attunement/fix/improvement to some skills as per suggestions given by various contributors, while we work on establishing the role a Magus -should- have and how we can go about that.
no idea why people would still oppose that.
I'm not opposing it. I just think some might play the class for the wrong reasons.
I support tweaking the classes in the game, I just think that it should be done with a great deal of care and consideration, especially when it comes to buffing the dmg of classes. A class like the engi/magus can end up being very very powerfull with a dmg buff, since it's ranged and have a lot of ranged CC as well. some people mange to make them shine dmg wise as it is atm. There are just not a lot of them. I know we are only in T3 and they will be worse in T4 - I have played on live - but there was still some players, that made them OP on live servers as well. Not just CC wise, but also dmg wise. This was mostly the magus though, as it's magic dps.
I'm not criticizing you or your suggestions, I'm simply adding another wievpoint, to the discussion.
peterthepan3 wrote:We're not asking to be on par with Sorc. Literally all we want is a damage attunement/fix/improvement to some skills as per suggestions given by various contributors, while we work on establishing the role a Magus -should- have and how we can go about that.
no idea why people would still oppose that.
I'm not opposing it. I just think some might play the class for the wrong reasons.
I support tweaking the classes in the game, I just think that it should be done with a great deal of care and consideration, especially when it comes to buffing the dmg of classes. A class like the engi/magus can end up being very very powerfull with a dmg buff, since it's ranged and have a lot of ranged CC as well. some people mange to make them shine dmg wise as it is atm. There are just not a lot of them. I know we are only in T3 and they will be worse in T4 - I have played on live - but there was still some players, that made them OP on live servers as well. Not just CC wise, but also dmg wise. This was mostly the magus though, as it's magic dps.
I'm not criticizing you or your suggestions, I'm simply adding another wievpoint, to the discussion.
Can you answer this....what class did NOT become "op" thanks to rr100 and lotd? and I mean a GOOD answer.
What ranged CC do you speak off? the 3s stagger? the melee RANGE snare? perhaps the 2s disarm that we have to spec for? or maybe the root that EVERY caster gets? AH you refer to the 3s knockdown that requires for magi to *kill* their pet, effectively negating the 20% damage buff? Learn the class before you come speak about it. That's my number one annoyance with people like you.
You're entitled to your own opinion, but boy oh boy you're as ignorant as they come.
Edit: You're not adding to the discussion by labeling the class as a *support* archertype. The original concept for the class was quite different, we even had silence but that was discarded. We are not *support*. Should we be in line with sorcs? absolutely not. But having a lot of people who have never touched this class give their opinion is just as bad as asking directions to a 3 year old.
Last edited by Renork on Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Azarael wrote:How you can defend Magus when you've posted that ONE SKILL is defining the class, I don't know.
If your class would be rendered weak by the loss of one mastery skill, it's a terribly designed class and it needs to be fixed. Clinging onto the AoE pull is the reason this will never happen.
You can eliminate the CD on BoC
Move IFoC down the change tree
Increase the stagger from 3s to 5s (6s max)
remove the *kill your pet* requirement for the knockdown
have the 20% increase damage from having a pet work regardless of range.
Increase the base damage of firestorm
lower the cast time from 2s to 1s for the disarm
remove the cast time for agonizing torrent
etc etc
Plenty of things that can be done to the class.
From this list, do you think IFoC should be put down, or increasing time of stagger will cure the class?
All seems worthless. On 40 lvl you could mix your skills much better, so moving IFoC pointlessly. "Kill your pet" for me is a "last chance button" and with spamming of CC aoe very often you cant knock down anybody. In any case magus cant overdamage sorcs (just because of crt damage and huge damage per cast (2k from word of pain tick or crit from bolt)).
As far as I see in compare with magus engi's have more direct damage due to auto attacks or more damage from skills (I dont know their skills because never played engi's). May be for direct damage magi should have smth for auto attack compensation (some kind of dot, or may be it was taken in account when the game was under development).
Or may be we have to think about more utility way of magus - it has pretty good bunch of crowd control toys - mines (12-15s cd with stun is my favorite escape mechanism), 2s push (very often failed due to disruption, or simply 30s buff), snare (absolute useless because of engaged distance of use), roots (immobilization, but very fragile, one touch, and roots are broken, I'm not sure, does dots ticks affect breaking the roots), pet's sacrifice (knockdown, 1min (one minute!) cd without guarantee, that it will knock an opponent). Ah, and I forgot about pretty funny spell, that stops the casts in 20ft. So may be it will make sense to somehow improve reliability of some CC skills.
Or maybe, just maybe you need to learn how to read? Those changes are specific to t3 since we'll be here a while. Not once did I say a magus should outdamage a sorc either did I?
Have you considered tying a cast range buff to the pet's existing damage buff? If you're not allowed mobility or ridiculous damage, you should be allowed range.
peterthepan3 wrote:We're not asking to be on par with Sorc. Literally all we want is a damage attunement/fix/improvement to some skills as per suggestions given by various contributors, while we work on establishing the role a Magus -should- have and how we can go about that.
no idea why people would still oppose that.
I'm not opposing it. I just think some might play the class for the wrong reasons.
I support tweaking the classes in the game, I just think that it should be done with a great deal of care and consideration, especially when it comes to buffing the dmg of classes. A class like the engi/magus can end up being very very powerfull with a dmg buff, since it's ranged and have a lot of ranged CC as well. some people mange to make them shine dmg wise as it is atm. There are just not a lot of them. I know we are only in T3 and they will be worse in T4 - I have played on live - but there was still some players, that made them OP on live servers as well. Not just CC wise, but also dmg wise. This was mostly the magus though, as it's magic dps.
I'm not criticizing you or your suggestions, I'm simply adding another wievpoint, to the discussion.
Can you answer this....what class did NOT become "op" thanks to rr100 and lotd? and I mean a GOOD answer.
What ranged CC do you speak off? the 3s stagger? the melee RANGE snare? perhaps the 2s disarm that we have to spec for? or maybe the root that EVERY caster gets? AH you refer to the 3s knockdown that requires for magi to *kill* their pet, effectively negating the 20% damage buff? Learn the class before you come speak about it. That's my number one annoyance with people like you.
You're entitled to your own opinion, but boy oh boy you're as ignorant as they come.
Thanks for the polite answer. Always nice with a mature and civil discussion.
I'm not trying to prove you guys wrong, I simply have another way of loking at the class. I'm sorry we can't always be one big happy family and agree on everything.
I know the class is not perfect, but you have to agree that a ranged AOE stagger, KD and Rift is some pretty powerfull tools, even though you have to kill your pet. Yes you loose your 20% dmg buff, but how often are you actually standing still on top of your pet in a fight? There's constant movement. The dmg buff was given to the class because people was complainging about the lack of damage from the class. But again if you use the class for supporting, instead of focusing on being on top of the SC scoreboard, you dont excatly need that dmg buff.
And answer me this, if all classes became OP with rr100 and lotd gear, while would any class need a tweek/buff?
EDIT: spelling
Last edited by wender88 on Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
