Rift and Magnet

[Ade]

Spoiler:

I never fully understand where all this magus talk comes from, im not sure if any of you have actually played the other specs, but they are in themselves powerful, they do damage if you build the character correctly, they can function well in small group/large group and solo play just fine without rift.

Just seems to me that people are getting to hung up over rift and think that its the only decent thing, when its not, you just need to experiment and work with it, if you change the damage of the magus, it will probably end up being too strong, because then you have higher damage, and the same utility.

Also I see a lot of this 'competitive' talk about warhammer, the game is the furthest thing away from competitive, it was designed around large rvr fights, and the magus fits in well there. stun, aoe damage, dot, single target etc etc.

You're telling me that a Havoc spec magus is powerful when compared against any other DD?

We're not saying that the other specs aren't DECENT; more, the other specs will offer nothing that another DPS could do. ANY decent player can make any class work.

What is this utility that the Magus brings that other classes don't have? A 3 second stagger? A snare that requires you to be in range of WL/WHs?

No offence, but competitive action does/can occur (it most certainly did on live, orz/etc and their regular 6v6 events) in this game. The game wasn't solely catering towards mindless zerg - which is good, because a lot of people don't really find 10000 vs 10000 players enjoyable.
The game catered towards different sorts of PvP, which is what made it stand-out as a PVP MMO: 6v6 scenarios and group play; Mass RvR in keeps and city sieges; solo/duo roaming, etc. Everyone could enjoy the game in some guise. Saying outright that 'the game does not cater towards competitive play' is just indicative of a lack of having experienced the sort, to be frank.

AOE Dots? The dots are laughable at best, and deal no real damage to any decent opposition with 2 WPs cleansing. I implore you to test the potency of glean magic and pandemonium against a group of players who know how to detaunt and cleanse.

This is precisely the sort of feedback that is detrimental to the intended goal of those of us who actually play the Magi, i.e. giving the class a definite role, and in the interim providing some buffs/fixes that will allow us to perform somewhat effectively and not pigeon-hole us into rift. The class - in a competitive environment - does not have nowhere near enough utility or anything to warrant taking it over another DPS, RIFT ASIDE. That's just it. Saying 'but the other specs are good' negates nothing from this: Changing gives you Indigo Fire, and that is about the only good thing you get from it; Havoc gives you a version of doombolt on a high CD, and a disarm (which does deal decent damage, I'll admit). Sure, if you're playing casually you CAN make it work; but if you want to play in a serious group, then there is literally no reason to bring a Magus (rift aside) and if you can persuade me otherwise I'll concede.

the 'l2p' arguments have no place here, and I'm happy to log on my magus and show you that I do know how to play havoc/change. that doesn't mean that the specs don't pale in comparison to other DD, offering nothing that they can't do/excel at considerably.

Not quite sure you understood the point of my post, but oh well. I said nothing of l2p, I said experiment, I believe there is a big difference.

[Renork]

Spoiler:

I never fully understand where all this magus talk comes from, im not sure if any of you have actually played the other specs, but they are in themselves powerful, they do damage if you build the character correctly, they can function well in small group/large group and solo play just fine without rift.

Just seems to me that people are getting to hung up over rift and think that its the only decent thing, when its not, you just need to experiment and work with it, if you change the damage of the magus, it will probably end up being too strong, because then you have higher damage, and the same utility.

Also I see a lot of this 'competitive' talk about warhammer, the game is the furthest thing away from competitive, it was designed around large rvr fights, and the magus fits in well there. stun, aoe damage, dot, single target etc etc.

You're telling me that a Havoc spec magus is powerful when compared against any other DD?

We're not saying that the other specs aren't DECENT; more, the other specs will offer nothing that another DPS could do. ANY decent player can make any class work.

What is this utility that the Magus brings that other classes don't have? A 3 second stagger? A snare that requires you to be in range of WL/WHs?

No offence, but competitive action does/can occur (it most certainly did on live, orz/etc and their regular 6v6 events) in this game. The game wasn't solely catering towards mindless zerg - which is good, because a lot of people don't really find 10000 vs 10000 players enjoyable.
The game catered towards different sorts of PvP, which is what made it stand-out as a PVP MMO: 6v6 scenarios and group play; Mass RvR in keeps and city sieges; solo/duo roaming, etc. Everyone could enjoy the game in some guise. Saying outright that 'the game does not cater towards competitive play' is just indicative of a lack of having experienced the sort, to be frank.

AOE Dots? The dots are laughable at best, and deal no real damage to any decent opposition with 2 WPs cleansing. I implore you to test the potency of glean magic and pandemonium against a group of players who know how to detaunt and cleanse.

This is precisely the sort of feedback that is detrimental to the intended goal of those of us who actually play the Magi, i.e. giving the class a definite role, and in the interim providing some buffs/fixes that will allow us to perform somewhat effectively and not pigeon-hole us into rift. The class - in a competitive environment - does not have nowhere near enough utility or anything to warrant taking it over another DPS, RIFT ASIDE. That's just it. Saying 'but the other specs are good' negates nothing from this: Changing gives you Indigo Fire, and that is about the only good thing you get from it; Havoc gives you a version of doombolt on a high CD, and a disarm (which does deal decent damage, I'll admit). Sure, if you're playing casually you CAN make it work; but if you want to play in a serious group, then there is literally no reason to bring a Magus (rift aside) and if you can persuade me otherwise I'll concede.

the 'l2p' arguments have no place here, and I'm happy to log on my magus and show you that I do know how to play havoc/change. that doesn't mean that the specs don't pale in comparison to other DD, offering nothing that they can't do/excel at considerably.

Not quite sure you understood the point of my post, but oh well. I said nothing of l2p, I said experiment, I believe there is a big difference.

Both Peterpan and I played the magi class extensively. I played mine pre and post lotd, so whenever someone like you comes and says "CLASS IS FINE", it does get very annoying. Why don't you tell us how to properly play the class? Please, advise on rotations and proper spec. We would love to hear your input.


Edit: and, please don't tell us to spam the 0 cd pandemonium.

[Renork]

On that note, regardless if the dimwits that continiously give their opinion without playing the class agree or not, magi has the role of rifting. Dots are a joke past t1 and they are only truly effective versus pugs without healers.

Mist = great concept, but people will not stand in it for too long and 98% of the time a random idiot will knock people away from it. If you die from this, you need to turn on your graphic effects.
BoC = excellent (with proper gear). Pretty much the equiv. of doombolt with a 10 second CD.
Storm: decent, but it requires 14 points and a sorc can do a lot better.
Disarm: 2s cast, lol.
Seed of Chaos: another lol, yay another dot that explodes for crappy damage at the end.
IFoC: good, nothing special really.
Torrent: lol, why does it have a cast time again?
Aegis: decent, but not really worth it imo.
Rift: Role detected.

Other things..

3s stagger? lol
3s knockdown that requires for you to be in melee range with your pet out, it also kills your pet...thus -20% damage bye bye.


If you die to a magus you need to befriend any random healer and just ask for a HoT, you'll survive next time :^)

[Renork]

How you can defend Magus when you've posted that ONE SKILL is defining the class, I don't know.

If your class would be rendered weak by the loss of one mastery skill, it's a terribly designed class and it needs to be fixed. Clinging onto the AoE pull is the reason this will never happen.

You can eliminate the CD on BoC
Move IFoC down the change tree
Increase the stagger from 3s to 5s (6s max)
remove the *kill your pet* requirement for the knockdown
have the 20% increase damage from having a pet work regardless of range.
Increase the base damage of firestorm
lower the cast time from 2s to 1s for the disarm
remove the cast time for agonizing torrent

etc etc

Plenty of things that can be done to the class.

[talissera]

How you can defend Magus when you've posted that ONE SKILL is defining the class, I don't know.

If your class would be rendered weak by the loss of one mastery skill, it's a terribly designed class and it needs to be fixed. Clinging onto the AoE pull is the reason this will never happen.

You can eliminate the CD on BoC
Move IFoC down the change tree
Increase the stagger from 3s to 5s (6s max)
remove the *kill your pet* requirement for the knockdown
have the 20% increase damage from having a pet work regardless of range.
Increase the base damage of firestorm
lower the cast time from 2s to 1s for the disarm
remove the cast time for agonizing torrent

etc etc

Plenty of things that can be done to the class.

From this list, do you think IFoC should be put down, or increasing time of stagger will cure the class?

All seems worthless. On 40 lvl you could mix your skills much better, so moving IFoC pointlessly. "Kill your pet" for me is a "last chance button" and with spamming of CC aoe very often you cant knock down anybody. In any case magus cant overdamage sorcs (just because of crt damage and huge damage per cast (2k from word of pain tick or crit from bolt)).

As far as I see in compare with magus engi's have more direct damage due to auto attacks or more damage from skills (I dont know their skills because never played engi's). May be for direct damage magi should have smth for auto attack compensation (some kind of dot, or may be it was taken in account when the game was under development).

Or may be we have to think about more utility way of magus - it has pretty good bunch of crowd control toys - mines (12-15s cd with stun is my favorite escape mechanism), 2s push (very often failed due to disruption, or simply 30s buff), snare (absolute useless because of engaged distance of use), roots (immobilization, but very fragile, one touch, and roots are broken, I'm not sure, does dots ticks affect breaking the roots), pet's sacrifice (knockdown, 1min (one minute!) cd without guarantee, that it will knock an opponent). Ah, and I forgot about pretty funny spell, that stops the casts in 20ft. So may be it will make sense to somehow improve reliability of some CC skills.

[RyanMakara]

If you die to a magus you need to befriend any random healer and just ask for a HoT, you'll survive next time :^)

I once saw a Magus yell a derogative aimed at gay people in /say chat because he tried to kill a level 12 Runepriest on the move in T2, all the way into Mandred's... Little guy made it all the way from the warcamp up to the guards without even flinching at that disk jockey :^)

[talissera]

It seems like engi's have more useful morales.

[magter3001]

If you die to a magus you need to befriend any random healer and just ask for a HoT, you'll survive next time :^)

I once saw a Magus yell a derogative aimed at gay people in /say chat because he tried to kill a level 12 Runepriest on the move in T2, all the way into Mandred's... Little guy made it all the way from the warcamp up to the guards without even flinching at that disk jockey :^)

Would have been different if it was a SW

[wender88]

Has nobody in this thread played on Azgal together/against Pippuu?
In my oppinion, he played the engineer, how it's meant to be played. It was never meant to be a dmg class, it was meant to be a support class.
That guy would interrupt the pants of everything and anything. Constant CC spam made it very hard to play against him as it would interupt healers and casters, break up melee trains etc.
He was full def tard and mitigeted/absorbed all inc dmg i.e. very had to kill.
Imo his kind of playstyle would be perfect for the way SC's are being bombed today. Hardly anyone can run a succesfull melee train atm and just bomb everything down instead, so the CC immunity doesnt really matter anyway.

All of this ofc goes for the magus as well - they are support classes, not dmg classes.

I think we are seeing a bit of "buff mara/SW because I don't know what excatly the class is meant to do" case here.

EDIT: I'm not trying to piss of long time players of the classes (hello Renork), but I'm trying to bring a different point of view on the discussion.

[peterthepan3]

Has nobody in this thread played on Azgal together/against Pippuu?
In my oppinion, he played the engineer, how it's meant to be played. It was never meant to be a dmg class, it was meant to be a support class.
That guy would interrupt the pants of everything and anything. Constant CC spam made it very hard to play against him as it would interupt healers and casters, break up melee trains etc.
He was full def tard and mitigeted/absorbed all inc dmg i.e. very had to kill.
Imo his kind of playstyle would be perfect for the way SC's are being bombed today. Hardly anyone can run a succesfull melee train atm and just bomb everything down instead, so the CC immunity doesnt really matter anyway.

All of this ofc goes for the magus as well - they are support classes, not dmg classes.

I think we are seeing a bit of "buff mara/SW because I don't know what excatly the class is meant to do" case here.

EDIT: I'm not trying to piss of long time players of the classes (hello Renork), but I'm trying to bring a different point of view on the discussion.

. .that would be okay if we:
A) Were listed under SUPPORT archetype, and not RANGED DAMAGE;
B) actually had a plethora of support abilities that other classes don't already have, to justify the lack of a role

As it stands, we have a 3 second stagger (provided by kobs) and rift. That's it. That is not sufficient to render a class with two trees dedicated to LONG-RANGE DAMAGE as a support class.
Sure, we have supporting abilities; but we are a damage dealer primarily.