Improving the 2H blackguard playstyle

[Uchoo]

How often do you win a tough fought 1v1 in a nordenwatch, and only then you can add your strength to a stalemate fight at a banner, that can go your team's way.

Never in organized play. Warhammer is the most group-dependent game I have ever played. You need to have at least 3 support classes in a group (2 healers, a tank). Everyone in the group is bringing something to every kill; Guard, Challenge, Tooth of Tzeentch, extra damage, heal debuff, whatever.

A healer is never "winning a 1v1 then contributing to a stalemate" nor is a tank.

I would totally agree with your analogy in Warhammer tabletop or even in more casual play in this game, but not in a typical setting.

[Uchoo]

I find the discussion of Run Away! subjective. A heal Shaman is almost entirely countered by a knight with Destroy Confidence, so if you are running a Shaman in your group you are choosing a subpar healer (low output and utility) whose entire gimmick is countered by one global from a tank, as well as enabling so much free burst damage from that tank or a very subpar DPS who offers very low damage and very low utility.

Squig is of course justifiable in a group, especially at this stage of the game. However, later on in T4, with how Weapon Skill works, they are a heal debuff bot, perhaps running Bad Gas! as well.

In addition to that, Run Away! is only available on 2 classes on all of Destro. Your opinion is grounded in fact but it is still anecdotal because as an order melee train, that's probably what you have the hardest time killing, 2 classes. Those 2 classes probably have very little relevance on your strategy in serious play as well.

I understand that Witch Elves can get a speed boost, too, so that's 3 classes. We're up to 3 classes that fit the paradigm of your -10% and -40% discussion (one being attached to root break, so it's up 10s out of every 60 at very best).

Of course, these issues aren't so very nearly far apart when you include the fact that every MDPS has charge, flee + AP Potting is a pretty standard technique, and WL's have Pounce, as well as Order having 2 Morale 1 10s roots that are only breakable with root break or Focused Mind (Do NOT EVER break on damage) compared to Destro's 1.

I do agree that a BG has a higher damage potential than a Black Orc due to their undetauntable nature, yet we all know that Black Orcs/Swordmasters have their disadvantages in organized play. Of course, Order doesn't have a perma detaunt MDPS like a Marauder, and getting detaunted by a single target detaunt as a tank means they don't have it for any of your dps players. The fact remains, however, that there is little difference on a fundamental level between IB and BG besides the fact that IB has a 2H knockdown. Crimson Death is a fairly poor comparison since Earthshatter hits just as hard (further testing needed) at 100 grudge, and also has a form of utility, and fits well into any spec they choose.

So, no, discussion isn't over, just another easily debated stance. No offense intended, but Warhammer is a very complex game in its system of balance between classes.

At the end of the day, the only thing hurting is the people who want to play the 2H spec of the Blackguard, even if it is point for point less viable in a group setting.

[Nanji]

Yeah, absolutely. But, wouldn't you agree that giving 2h BGs that KD would be a huge step in improving it's viability? Even if it is likely that it will not make 2h BGs highly viable, it will drastically improve the quality of life.

To provide a relevant anecdote that everyone seems so fond of; it's late at night, no friends are on, you throw on that sweet glaive for some solo action right? A WH opens up on you, BAM! Pistol Whip! You try to chase down a SW, BAM! Eye Shot! You try to chase down a BW, BAM! Stop, Drop and Roll! You try to have a nice 2h duel with an IB, BAM! Cave-Win! With all that time spent with your face in the mud, you start to ponder, "Why the hell don't I have a KD?", "Oh yeah, I gave it up for some more white damage....feelsbadman."

In regard to group play, any competent player knows that SnB is the superior setup and it feels terrible to give up something as impactful as Spiteful Slam. When on the IB however, it doesn't feel nearly as bad to throw on that 2h. Sure, it may be a bit less viable than SnB, but it doesn't make you feel foolish for doing so.

I strongly believe that playing a certain setup shouldn't make you feel foolish and guilty, even if it is less viable. Giving BoR a KD would fix this undeniable issue.

I already stated that 2h BG doesnt have to compete with snb BG, every destru 2h tank will loose utility compared to his snb version. So why shouldnt the BG ?
Out of the destru 2h tanks only chosen really has the possibility to go for KD, BOs doing so should be kicked out of grp.
Want the dmg or the utility?
Utility -> snb
Dmg-> 2h
I dont see why it would look foolish to swap utility for dmg, if you need dmg and already have sufficient utility.
You can just run snare in your grp, no hard cc like KD required.
Solo I would suggest to run fully offensive with snb, dmg and survivability combined.

Please keep in mind that the game will not be balanced around 1on1.

[Penril]

Forget about a 2H KD. Just buff Crimson Death from 10% to 15% (after all, a KotBS can stack EA + DT for an effective 20% increase in crit AND while using a SnB, and a SW can buff it to 15% with leading shots).

I wonder if CD can debuff chance to be crit based on hatred (under 50: 5%, with 50: 10%, with 75: 15%, with 100: 20%).

[Nanji]

I find the discussion of Run Away! subjective. A heal Shaman is almost entirely countered by a knight with Destroy Confidence, so if you are running a Shaman in your group you are choosing a subpar healer (low output and utility) whose entire gimmick is countered by one global from a tank, as well as enabling so much free burst damage from that tank or a very subpar DPS who offers very low damage and very low utility.

Shami is bad because it is completely countered by kobs?
Lets talk about that in t4, because I remember differently playing kobs very successful, right now kobs removes 1 enchantment per global and the shami applies 1 per global. Pretty much a tie.

Squig is of course justifiable in a group, especially at this stage of the game. However, later on in T4, with how Weapon Skill works, they are a heal debuff bot, perhaps running Bad Gas! as well.

Any good SH will disagree, I have even had good 6on6 against mara/sh. Definately not a debuff bot.
WS scales nicely and the SH can achieve really high WS numbers.
You can ask me to prove it to you via calculations but I want sth in return.
Otherwise just check the formular and the sets on arsenalofwar.

In addition to that, Run Away! is only available on 2 classes on all of Destro. Your opinion is grounded in fact but it is still anecdotal because as an order melee train, that's probably what you have the hardest time killing, 2 classes. Those 2 classes probably have very little relevance on your strategy in serious play as well.

And on 0 classes of order. How many classes on order side have KDs while their equivalent has none? (not counting mara )
2? Weird.....

I understand that Witch Elves can get a speed boost, too, so that's 3 classes. We're up to 3 classes that fit the paradigm of your -10% and -40% discussion (one being attached to root break, so it's up 10s out of every 60 at very best).

Just mentioned WE for the record.
You forgot the BG and Chosen speedboost. If you think tank speedboost might not be important I have bad news for you or any tank that shares said opinion.

Of course, these issues aren't so very nearly far apart when you include the fact that every MDPS has charge, flee + AP Potting is a pretty standard technique, and WL's have Pounce, as well as Order having 2 Morale 1 10s roots that are only breakable with root break or Focused Mind (Do NOT EVER break on damage) compared to Destro's 1.

Sure, if you wouldnt be able to reach the sh/sham in the first place you wouldnt need kd. (talking about dps snare and tank kd) After that you pretty much have nothing to cover the distance.
Regarding range setups, range plays a minor role here, speed proc and snare are very important if mdps are involved.

I do agree that a BG has a higher damage potential than a Black Orc due to their undetauntable nature, yet we all know that Black Orcs/Swordmasters have their disadvantages in organized play. Of course, Order doesn't have a perma detaunt MDPS like a Marauder, and getting detaunted by a single target detaunt as a tank means they don't have it for any of your dps players. The fact remains, however, that there is little difference on a fundamental level between IB and BG besides the fact that IB has a 2H knockdown. Crimson Death is a fairly poor comparison since Earthshatter hits just as hard (further testing needed) at 100 grudge, and also has a form of utility, and fits well into any spec they choose.

BO/SM disadvantages?????
+ I already explained that 2h BG doesnt compete with IB. In order to get a grp spot his 2h capabilities have to exceed those of 2h BO and 2h Chosen at a certain point.

So, no, discussion isn't over, just another easily debated stance. No offense intended, but Warhammer is a very complex game in its system of balance between classes.

Didnt say that.

At the end of the day, the only thing hurting is the people who want to play the 2H spec of the Blackguard, even if it is point for point less viable in a group setting.

If your grp want dmg instead of utility it is more viable.
And I want a dual wield SM. Will I ever get one?

[War]

I already stated that 2h BG doesnt have to compete with snb BG, every destru 2h tank will loose utility compared to his snb version. So why shouldnt the BG ?

It does have to compete with SnB...The BG shouldn't lose the KD because the IB doesn't, mirror vs mirror is obviously the most relevant comparison. The other 2h destro tanks may have their problems, but the discussion here is the BG.

Out of the destru 2h tanks only chosen really has the possibility to go for KD, BOs doing so should be kicked out of grp.
Want the dmg or the utility?
Utility -> snb
Dmg-> 2h

An offensive SnB can provide great damage AND utility. Especially in T4 with the Anguish/Malice build. It's unfortunate the 2h playstyle is rather strictly confined to just damage.

I dont see why it would look foolish to swap utility for dmg, if you need dmg and already have sufficient utility.
You can just run snare in your grp, no hard cc like KD required.
Solo I would suggest to run fully offensive with snb, dmg and survivability combined.

It's foolish because the paltry amount of damage you gain is not worth the tremendous sacrifice. The mirror doesn't have to make such a harsh sacrifice, it doesn't make sense and it doesn't have to be this way.

Please keep in mind that the game will not be balanced around 1on1.

Of course, it never has been and it probably never will be. The silly story was just to depict how painful the situation is if you are solo as a 2h.

[Coryphaus]

Their are very real benefits of AoE snare vs KD, you cannot prevent people from activating things like pocket items and potions with a snare

[Gobtar]

Off topic: Shammies are not top tier because they cannot cleanse BW dots, AND the most prevalent order tank can switch out a tactic to make the healing they are doing irrelevant (unless they spam group heals which at that point why aren't you playing a DoK?) Said tactic is a core ability, luckily and wont be seen until T4, so shammies have some time to stay relevant.

I think there is a disconnect form the fact that almost everything that people complain a 2h BG might be able to do a SnB BG can already do it and better. (except crimson death)

[Bozzax]

2h BGs needs a kd as it is one of the archetype defining abilities. 20 pages about shamans or theory crafting don't change that.

SnB > 2h regardless so that change wouldn't affect overal balance of the class anyway.

Easiest way would be to change block to parry on SS (if it is possible?) If SS is to strong or not is another discussion imo

[Uchoo]

I would agree that you should be able to play a Dual-wield Swordmaster if you are so inclined, of course, it's foolish to ask as there are far more pressing matters to address than trying to balance a new playstyle, especially with such a small team working on the project.

Based on my experience, the best way to balance a game is based on statistics and endorsing good, fun gameplay.

For example, if you were too look at scenarios and see that a class like Swordmaster has a 30% participation in scenarios across the board compared to like 45% for other classes, and a 12% lower win rate when there are 2 or more Swordmasters in a scenario, this would raise red flags.

Of course, this is an example and in no way reflects fact.

Regarding good gameplay, this is where your idea for a dual-wield Swordmaster comes into play. You want players to be having as much fun as possible on their class, whether they are winning or losing. MMOs in particular, as you invest so much time into a single character, you need to have a lot of options with how you can spend your time.

As we sit and compare every possible tactic, speed boost, knockdown, we would end up with a large spreadsheet with data that is so hard to parse in a manner that makes any type of sense, we would end up accomplishing nothing, which is why I mention the above points.

I personally find the 2H knockdown on the Ironbreaker to be integral to their playstyle, and the BG running a 2H spec is so similar that it just feels lacking.

I realize that you don't like the idea of balancing around 1v1, and I myself find it a hard value to embrace in Warhammer as support roles contribute so much more than any other game I have played, but running solo is a playstyle that shouldn't be ignored.

I notice that you guys in Enigma tend to spend a lot of your time on classes that can succeed easily by themselves when you don't have your whole group on. Why not instead let more classes have a toolkit that isn't so reliant on others?